Cross-Dressers are just like woman?

Jassmine(SO) · Post by **Jassmine(SO)** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:33 am

Hi Gang

CJ, as always you hit the nail on the head

Especially:

This is a truism: the way we perceive ourselves to be has almost everything to do with how others perceive us, regardless of what we were born with.

I have met some very attractive women who, to me at any rate, were "ugly. Why? Because their personalities were awful. Most thought that they were God's gift to men and used their looks to control and manipulate them

Others just thought that because they were attractive they could behave as badly as they wished and get away with it. The saying "Beauty is only skin deep and ugly cuts to the bone", is very true. True beauty comes from within

*Hugs & Love*

Post by **DonnaT** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:25 am

crossdressers do what they do to imitate women

I would say some do, some don't. I didn't start out dressing at 10-12 yrs old to imitate anyone. I haven't the slightest clue why I put on my first feminine garments, other than some deep urging need to do so. Heck I didn't even like girls at that age. All I know is I enjoyed the feeling once I had dressed, and I still enjoy the feeling. Most of the time all the dressing I do is a pair of panties,because I like the feel, and since everything else is drab, I don't feel like I'm imitating a woman. Same with just going out with nails painted, or in a feminine top, and yes even make-up.

So, for me it goes much deeper than wanting to imitate women.

Terri(SO) · Post by **Terri(SO)** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:34 pm

Hi Beauty,
Thanks. You and I were writing at the same time and you hit the submit before me. I may have posted a bit differently had I read yours first.

Yes, I understand and really agree with you, and you put it all very well.

This thread is actually multifaceted and complex so its really what CJ has written that I was trying to express and disagree with:

"There's a disquieting supposition, here, that wearing makeup is part of what it means to be a woman. It isn't--regardless of whether or not women actually wear makeup."

Terri(SO) · Post by **Terri(SO)** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:45 pm

Hi Jassmine,
I think we are confusing the term attractive with the concept of "good-looking". In my mind someone can be very plain or non-descript and be exceptionally attractive because of the inner beauty, intellegence, etc. And then there are those that you mentioned, who are very good looking (and maybe wear alot of makeup too?) but are repulsive to be near (read NOT attractive).
I, myself, would rather be (and be around) an attractive person!

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:49 pm

Hi girls,

This thread has taken a lot of turns from when it started. I would like to get back to the original question.

Darlene wrote:

Some women and most cross-dressers appear to have one outstanding thing in common. They are both presenting a false front. They wear the same masks.......No?

I have really had to think about this a lot over the last few days. I have seen discussions about what being a woman means, or if makeup makes us feel confident, and those who don't need makeup to feel confident. I have seen us talk about hiding behind makeup, or that there is a difference depending on how much makeup you wear. I have read all of this, and I really have not been able to comment because I personally have been struggling with this very issue internally, for quite some time.

Why do I have this inexplicable need to dress like a woman, and to put on makeup so as to further give signals, not only to the public but also to myself, that I am a woman. Why do I carry a woman's wallet? And wear a woman's watch? Why do I long to have lacy frilly bedsheets and pillows, and even a canopy bed?

I think that what is really going on is that I was born with a mask. And this mask hides who I really am. It gives the entire world the perception that I am a man, so the world expects me to act accordingly. It is precisely because of this assumption that I think I need to dress, and do all the other things. So I can stop feeling the need to present myself as this person I am not. So that the public will stop expecting me to act like a man.

And because I look so much like a man, I am looking for all the symbolism I can find to show everyone, including myself, that I am not a man.

The rest is just personal taste. Some women like more makeup, some women like less. Some women like furs, some women don't. Some women prefer jeans, some women prefer a sundress. I do not beleive it is so important how we present our femininity, but that we do it to our own satisfaction.

I have my entire life seen women that, in my opinion, either wear too much makeup or wear a bad combination of makeup. I have always wondered, Don't they know that does not look attractive? But as I explore this part of me, it turns out that it is "The Stupidly Looking Hat", for all of us. It is about what makes us each, as individuals, feel good.

And that is one girls opnion.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Beauty · Post by **Beauty** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:14 pm

Darlene wrote:Hi all,

All very interesting replies.

With make up being some thing some one thought up, I wonder where it would leave the cross-dresser (that needs to pass) if women stopped wearing make up?

One woman said that with out make up she looks like a man. Would it then make it any easier for us?

What are your thoughts about this?

Hi Elizabeth,

Darlene asked new questions and that kind of changed things up. The change started another great set of responses.

Beauty

Kersten Lee · Post by **Kersten Lee** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:44 pm

Hi,

This is so interesting finding where the line is drawn for each of us.

Elizabeth, again I see you describing my feelings. I don't think I am as far along as you are the way you dress more to express the person you believe yourself to be. I haven't felt the need to be a woman full time, but need the enjoyment I get from cross-dressing to better express the person I feel to be.

I think CJ said something to the affect that we think so we exist. All of us will define just a little differently how we may define man, woman or anything in between.

Mass media has changed the equation. Still in some places an ethnic group or even a family group will attempt to define beauty in a comprehensive manner. Religions also do and have done the same. Some groups such as this still exist in this country.

In nature it's curious that males are usually the more colorful gender, even with the chimpanzee. I think a case could be made that color has played a big part of nature and also with humans.

I think what we do in the end is attributable to our personal belief system. Being associated with all of you has given me the belief that I can be me. In actuallity, if not for all of you, I probably would not be getting my toes polished monthly, I would not be so comfortable shopping for the clothes, I would not have worked harder to do make-up so it looked more feminine and believable to me. Don't all the women married to cross-dressers freak. I wasn't convinced to do anything I didn't already want to do. One time someone posted a comment from a site that said a cross-dresser was two years from becoming a woman. It botherd me and scared my wife. I know now that is not true. We are what we are, if we free ourselves to explore our being.

Thanks for the posts and for reading my guesses also!!
Thanks to all the genetic women also that help to keep discussions honest, giving opinions from the other side. I still believe we all have more in common than less!

Hugs,
Kersten

CJ · Post by CJ » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:25 pm

Hi all,

Kerten wrote: I think CJ said something to the effect that we think so we exist.

Thanks, Kersten dear, but I only wish!

This is the gentleman you're looking for:

He once wrote: cogito ergo sum... I think, therefore I am (he meant that the only thing that he can truly be sure served to define who and what he was, without the possibility of a doubt, was that he was aware of his own existence at the very moment he thought about it). It's a saying that's become famous, even beyond the walls of philosophy.

On a more topical note, I'll have to admit that I'm all "makeup-ed out." I don't believe I really have anything more to say on the matter. Still, this is one of the most stimulating threads I've participated in in a while. Thanks to all for your input and apologies to Darlene for having wandered all over the place on this one.

Love,
CJ

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:53 pm

Hi all again.

Yes I too am thankful to all who participated in this thread. It has indeed become a very stimulating thread, from which I have benefited.

There is yet one more train of thought that I would still like to pursue here.

Darlene wrote;
I suspect that some masks might even be healthy.

Here is my take on this;

We are all born male and female. Not one a male and one a female. We were not born with a mask.

We accepted a mask from our peers early in life. and therefore we have needed what I call healthy masks to cover up the unhealthy ones that were earlier forced upon us.

Due to this injustice we simply need masks in order to survive. Therefore there should be no guilt for healthy masks, that in reality are worn to release us from this injustice.

Any thoughts about this?

Kersten Lee · Post by **Kersten Lee** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:49 am

Darlene,

The last was a very insightful thought. I agree. This brings the conversation full circle. It makes me think that life may be more circular
than I previously believed. Lately, I have been feeling a circular effect
of life more intensely. I feel I am becoming more the innocent child that I was in early life, long before pressures caused me to wear masks. I am starting to feel the enjoyment and joy of those times, less the abuse. I am more enjoying my feminine attributes like I did when I first dressed at
five. Long before I was made to believe it was wrong.

Thank you all again, especially Darlene on this one. You all help through these discussions for me to know myself. Many of you have always been confident knowing yourselves and acting accordingly. I hope most of you understand where I am coming from. The person I used to be was not me, I was not free in my mind to think consider and form my own opinions. I was mostly what others made me or needed me to be.

Thanks again,
Hugs,
Kersten

Jassmine(SO) · Post by **Jassmine(SO)** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:14 am

Hi MariasGirl

MariasGirl(SO) wrote:Hi Jassmine,
I think we are confusing the term attractive with the concept of "good-looking". In my mind someone can be very plain or non-descript and be exceptionally attractive because of the inner beauty, intellegence, etc. And then there are those that you mentioned, who are very good looking (and maybe wear alot of makeup too?) but are repulsive to be near (read NOT attractive).
I, myself, would rather be (and be around) an attractive person!

You raise an interesting point about some of the not so "attractive" women wearing a lot of makeup. Some I ran across did, while others did not. But they all did indeed wear some. Maybe in these cases they truly are wearing make up as a mask to hide behind

*Hugs & Love*

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:08 pm

Kerstin wrote;
I hope most of you understand where I am coming from. The person I used to be was not me, I was not free in my mind to think consider and form my own opinions. I was mostly what others made me or needed me to be.

Kersten honey, I understand completely, because I experienced that very same thing.

Kersten Lee · Post by **Kersten Lee** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:31 pm

Thanks again, Darlene,

I got a tear in each eye reading your feelings. I have lived my life with no one who knew or could understand most of my feelings. Maybe I am just overly sensitive and or cry easily. It always touches me to my core when I read someone's writings that speak of the feelings I have had so long but could not share. It is the same when you said you understand, because I know you do. It feels like a spirit is reaching me across time and space to comfort me in understanding.

You are a very special being as are everyone else that I love here.

I want to say now that you have contributed so much to my life in so many good ways.

None of what I said is an exageration.

Love,
Kersten

Loretta Ann · Post by **Loretta Ann** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:06 pm

Thanks Kersten, That helps to keep me keeping on.
You as well as others here, are also very special people.

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:04 pm

Well girls another mind-bending thread.
As for the "appearance" factor of GG's I guess there are those just like CD'ers who struggle with the "proper expression ofmak-up." In other words GG's are not born with some inate ability to properly put on "their face." However they evidently get a lot more guidance than "we" do and most end up "getting it right , or at least close": but like us there are those that don't and will never get it right and end up under or over doing it or giving up. Just remember "ladies" when a GG wakes up in the morning and plants her dainty toes on the floor - she is still a GG!!!!!!! WE ain't!!!
As for the mask, yes we all have them whether we admit it or not. I posted in another section earlier that I don't wish to make light of any of my sisters here, God knows you all have done more for me than you will ever know, but I seem to have a different attitude, whether Virginia is me or I am Virginia or she is a parallel diminsion I will continue to try and figure it out, but that is secondary to how she makes me feel and I love how how she makes me feel and everything else be damned! I love the emotional insight and repercussions I have with her, but I am not going to dwell on it, I live with it, I love it and its life, I deal with it an move on, I don't wallow in pity of self-doubt. If I/Virginia want to dresss "we" dress if I/Virginia want to go out we go out - its me I like me I like Virginia I will "do my thing" I will not dwell on any preceived "down-side."
Sorry, I don't mean to preach, I just , well I am me and Gheesh, it' late and I have to pull up carpet tomorrow!
Love you Girls!!,
Virginia