Crossdressers-Haven.com

The MIL and my wife's friend were here yesterday, a while back they saw something that came up on the TV about Bruce Jenner they went off on that and then on to Gays and the disgust was evident. This visit they were talking about Gays and the Flower shop issue the media is stirring up to attract viewers with controversy and sell air time - Grrrrrr!!!! They galvanize each group into their corners and create the very gridlock everyone is so tired of.

Anyway they talked about how so in so left his wife and kids and went to SAN FRANSISCO - and is now in Florida somewhere....and had come out I suppose, can't remember. But! I was able to steer the conversation without giving any hint I am transgender.

I told them I believe it (homosexuality) is a natural occurrence, that it happens in nature and that they are born that way. It is something people have to hide their whole lives because they know it is not accepted, and it may be they thought that by getting married and starting a family it would all go away but it didn't. That they probably reached a point where they just could not stand it anymore.

They seemed to accept all of this very well, it helped them to think and affirm what they really know to be true. They are born that way. They live their lives having to hide who they are. They may try to carry on with a normal life to fit in and believing it may go away. And finally realizing it is not something that goes away, decide they can no longer hide it anymore and have to come out.

Isn't this an exact parallel to how we are as transgender people? And the hopeful thing is if you can help people to think objectively and clearly about it by clarifying the issue without all the hyperbole you can help them to affirm what deep down they already accept and know to be true. They may still be uncomfortable not having much experience with something they fear because it does not fit in with what Christians have beaten into their head through brainwashing over the centuries as members of a cult where the beliefs must continually be reinforced, and fear kept turned up along with hatred and rejection of anyone who is different from what the cult teaches is the only acceptable lifestyle dictated by the deity they believe in.

They may still be uncomfortable but they went on to discuss in a positive way homosexuals they knew in their community, how they were nice people...just that way. How sad they had died. They were discussing with a more open mind at that point. Perhaps still not something they would accept but deep down they do they are just fearful of it, lack experience. Certainly they have met and talked to gay people in their community and found through experience that they were nice people. The friend even defended them as having good taste! And as being smart too.

The step to transgender is very small but I believe a conversation could be steered in such a way helping people toward open acceptance.



About the Flower shop issue I discussed the cabinet shop we had (we sold it when I decided to return to school to enter the medical/nursing field). I spoke of how a couple of gay people came in and though as a young straight man about 28 my skin was crawling, my father and I did not turn them away...their money was green. Also about some people from a cult who came in, again disgust and crawling skin...but we built cabinets for them because as a business man you do not turn away business, and though we may have had difficulties with acceptance at that point you do not turn away customers, to do so would harm your business further because word of mouth would steer other potential customers away and hurt our business.

I discussed also that those who's beliefs are so extreme that they would refuse to sell flowers for a wedding are an exception and there are few of them. As bigots they are only harming their business. No one should be forced against their beliefs but they are only hurting their selves and their businesses in the end as some people will go elsewhere due to the stigma attached. Can't force someone they only dig in their heels and reject even stronger than before. No you have to let the market work, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar the Shop owners need to realize they would be a better witness for their faith and be more attractive if they stop their ridiculous notions. By getting along you may not change any beliefs on either side but you learn to live together peacefully. Sometimes the religious people will learn to be more accepting well minds from both sides may change on occasion but as we know we are who we are...it is not something that can be changed.

The whole flower shop argument is stupid and it annoys me to no end.
Some particular law isn't going to allow a flower shop to refuse service to a gay couple. Any flower shop in the US can right now refuse service to anyone at all, for no reason at all. Which is ironic, that they can refuse service for no reason, but couldn't refuse service for a particular reason such as race or religion.
But more to the point, if I were getting married and some flower shop didn't like me, I'd go somewhere else. The last thing in the world I would do is try to compel a shop to serve me that didn't want to. I certainly can't expect them to put much effort into doing a good job if they don't want to be there in the first place. And one can pass a million laws, but there is always a way around them.

But I have to say that you are kinder than I am Anne. I would have started a tirade about how bigoted, close minded, judgemental, and hateful people, that pretend to be Christians, are the worst sort of sinners. That such people are worse than the homosexuals, the muslims, the prostitutes, and even worse than the politicians (it's a close one though) because they read and pound their bibles and then promptly run out and do the exact opposite of what they preach. I find it curious that people have some sort of idea that the more strongly they advertise their beliefs in a particular construct, the less they feel they should actually follow it.

I'm sure someone here has the legal references to clarify this, but I believe any business has the right to refuse service to anyone so long as the refusal is based on personal characteristics or behavior rather than membership in a group or class. In other words you could not refuse service for someone because they were gay or evangelical or a cross dresser.

But you could refuse service in your establishment because they were intrusively and repeatedly hitting on other customers of the the opposite or the same sex after being told that was inappropriate behavior.

You could refuse service because they insisted on proselytizing and offering baptism to your customers.

You could refuse service because they were wearing only transparent lingerie in your funeral home.

(Not an attorney, but I've played one on CD-Haven.)

In steering the conversation, you did well Anne. Other than a marriage relationship, I've had no gender issues. Hate comes from ignorance of things we don't understand. So, I've come to appreciate the wide world of sexual and gender diversity.
Tall, short, fat, or thin, we cannot change our genetics. So too with how we perceive ourselves and who we choose to love.

However, I must take offense at you referencing Christianity as a hateful cult. I am not a practioner of any specific faith, much like our Founding Fathers, I believe in a Deity. If you want to experience intolerance, visit an Islamic country and try to dress femme.

Tolerance is a two way path. Anyone that follows their faith in matters of Holy matrimony and choose not to participate in a same sex union is considered a bigot. Isn't the gay couple unable accept someone's religious beliefs also a bigot? Why do all the lawsuits and stories involve Christian owned businesses? Go to a Muslim owned flower shop and demand the same services. Should any one walk into a Jewish deli and demand a ham sandwich? Can any Jew or Muslim walk into the local chain food store and demand that all products be Kosher or Halal?

Of course not. What is going on right now is not about gay rights, that's a political ruse. This is an attack on Christianity and conservatism. These florists, bakers, and photographers all have had gay customers, only refused to participate in a ceremony against their religion.

Eileen

I agree with you Eileen, and that's why I think this whole argument is so silly.
Any sensible person will not ask for a ham sandwich in a Jewish deli any more than a gay couple would want a florist who has objections to participating in their wedding.
I have nothing against Jews or Muslims, but if I'm serving BBQ pulled pork sandwiches at my wedding, I would have to understand that any Jewish or Muslim friends I have probably will not want to participate.
This whole thing just seems to me like we are making a big issue out of something that isn't an issue at all.

Also, I should just clarify that any smart aleck comments I might make about "Christians" refers to those people who proclaim it and then don't follow it. I really don't care what religion a person follows, as long as they are sincere and don't bother me.

All religions make certain proclamations or claims which have no factual support, there is no scientific, factual data that can be provided no hard evidence that there is or is not a supreme being, or that this being asserted or has done any of what is said about them or the miraculous events, or even that the stories told have any basis in fact and if some are how accurate the history really is. No...religions require adherents to choose to believe and to accept such on faith alone so they are making huge assumptions with absolutely nothing to support what they believe...they are out there on thin air. Agnosticism is based on what we do know about the world we live in...solid scientific and historical facts and reason. I have nothing against the theists or atheists. But religions are cults by definition: A particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the object of such devotion. A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. Sociology: A group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. The members of such a religion or sect.

Now some cults are considered extreme when they lay outside the mainstream of the faith but still by definition even a mainstream religion is a cult and should be considered as such.

So Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Budism, etc...are all cult practices. True most are relatively harmless but when they try to influence those outside their group of believers and begin to harm and to persecute them well....that is hateful.

Christianity as well as other religions can be hateful when overly zealous believers outside the mainstream of belief start attacking those outside their religion in an attempt to force others to adhere to their fantasy world of beliefs and religious prescriptions for behavior onto nonbelievers.

Those who live in a secular society are under no obligation what so ever there is separation of church and state under the constitution. What we are required to do by law is not to harm others otherwise we are free to live as we see fit and we are required to obey the laws laid down by local, state and federal government.

Yes I am well aware of the barbaric practices of conservative Islam and those who are extreme. I think all of us who dress in feminine attire here would have our hands bound behind us, be blind folded, escorted to the tallest building in the local area and we would be shoved off the top of it falling to our death.