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This started out as a PM to Lori about a chat we were having and I had to leave suddenly. I realized that when I say my wife and I talked and communicated a lot about the CDing issues, that it really started out in a small way that did not even include anything about CDing. Then I realized maybe some one else may find this useful.

I am not sure how feminine some of the things you do in male mode are, but I have always been a mixed masculine/feminine trait person as long as I can remember. And using the everyday things is how I helped to improve and get the CDing communication going and more productive with my wife. This started by accident seeing her respond to something I did or said, and it just grew. And we were not even talking about CDing, but just everyday things and conversation. Well after I seen this first reaction, I began to emphasize something feminine I was doing or saying and add something like "and I have always been doing this my whole life", or “ have I not always done this?” to make her think about it. But I would not say CDing, like a woman, or feminine. My wife would pick up and glare or growl at me or both. Over time the glares and growls grew less drastic, I began adding in comments like "hummm, feminine task or trait?", or "should I be doing this is it too feminine for me to do” or if I was really bold “maybe you should do this as it is a feminine task", and more growls and glares. Comments that were questions seemed to bring the bigger reactions and comments from my wife and I hope thought by her. But I never waited for an answer. Later on at times, before I could say any thing, my wife would growl at me "yea I know it is a feminine task or trait or similar" and grumble. And CDing in the movies or tv she would growl and grumble about, and still does. This then lead to actual conversations, which some of the first ones did not go well, but they got better.


This worked for us, maybe some part of it may help you and your spouse.

A more personal version is we were struggling and not making much head way discussing the CDing issues. Most of the information I tried to pass on to my wife was pushed aside or considered bias and not good information. So after seeing her response to something when we were not even discussion the CDing a light bulb went on. Basically began pointing out my every day feminine / female traits, qualities, and physical features that I had always had since knowing her and before. And just via everyday life and and not with a major show or discussion. I highlighted things I did and always and done when I could. A little at first and got more aggressive over time. This lead to conversations about CDing and later her allowing me time to cd and then to CD around her when the kids were gone. My wife after a while said she married me for many of the "feminine" or non-macho "masculine" traits she seen in me and liked. When my wife was around when I was CDing or sometimes after my CDing time, she asked questions about how I felt when I was dressed and other similar questions. It actually became a learning thing for both of us as some times she would ask questions to which I did not have the answers and needed to reflect on them to get her answer. She began to see how I was when I was dressed and how it made me more relaxed and a better person over all. And I became more in touch with my feelings. She began wanting more information, so I pointed her to books and web sites. I mentioned a link on SPICE in passing to other information. She wanted more information on SPICE, and more. It was coming up in a month and a half and she said we should go to it, and we did. We both went with open minds and learned more at SPICE and how to communicate better. And that fit in with what we were doing with the counselors we were seeing. This lead to more conversations and communication, my wife learned more and I began deeper reflecting on who I was a a CDer and really nailing it down for myself and my wife, about who I was and who I was not, at that point in time. This gave us something to work with that both of us could relate to better. I got more time to CD around home. She made time by getting rid of the kids or taking them some where. Sometimes for the whole weekend. And we have grown and changed from there.

Can others relate to this? Talking about gender stereotypes, genders, and CDing with out actually talking about it.

KimberlyS-CD
joe in a skirt

HI Kimberly,

What a great story! You realize how lucky you are to have a woman who is at least open-minded enough to look at your existence. Some say "baby-steps" don't work, well you are evidently a textbook example that they do! You know I have always said, a GG could do a lot worse than developing a relationship with a CD. We do really have a lot to offer and bring something to a relationship that most GG's look for even if it is only subconsciously. That gentleness, kindness, empathy. Oh they think they like the pot-bellied, beer-swilling, knuckle-dragging, belching, apes, but deep down, NO!!!!

Science has recently come out with a theory that lesbians in a loving relationship are not only happier, but tend to be healthier, more content with life and themselves and live longer. I think we can bring that aspect to a relationship as well.

I hope that your relationship continues to grow and flourish and that you will continue to share with us.

Tell your wife that (well I can't speak for my sisters here) but I am proud of her and I know you are!!!

Love,

Virginia

Thank you Virginia for your response. My original intent was not to brag up my wife, even though I guess I did get that in there. She is pretty wonderful. But I wanted to point out to other CDers that are trying work through the CDing issues they have with their wifes, that there are indirect ways to discuss your feminine side and CDing with out mentioning either. I tried pounding into my wifes head I had always been like this and it just would never sink in for some reason. And the more information I gave her the more she rejected it. And then one day just talking and doing things around the house and my wife stopped talking, paused and looked at me. I said "what" questioning her pause. She blew it off saying nothing. And we went back to what we were doing. Then it hit me what we had been talking about and that her pause was her some how relating it to my cding. What I had been trying to pound into her and it was not getting in. But in that "Pause" it was able to get in. It was one of those moments that I now wish I could remember exactly what was said and or done. But I can not, but only remembering the enlightenment of I needed to quit beating this into her and just show her who I was and always had been. All I can say is it worked for us along with a commitment to each other and both of us working on the issues together.

KimberlyS-CD
joe in a skirt

Well my wife has known for 32 yrs and started out fine with, then went the other way. That proverbial roller-coaster ride, you see.

When we talk about it, we talk about it. But I have pointed out how different I am from my 4 brothers and how that could very well be because I am transgendered. I've pointed out how she would brag about how well I helped around the house, and that possibly was due to my being trans. ETC.

Since I've been trans for so long, it's hard to be sure that the qualities she liked were because I was trans, but they can't be ruled out either.

Hi Kim,

What a wonderfully astute essay ! I had actually been using this kind of approach without thinking about it. In spite of her acceptace and cooperation, Paula still needs to develop further understanding of my CD habits - as I do myself. Talking parallel to the subject (in a sense) is a good way to enhance communication and understanding. She still cannot understand why anyone would actually want to wear a bra.

Love and Hugs,

Lydia

Hi all,

Interesting thread, Kimberly. Thanks for posting.

I often talk about gender with my SO without necessarily bringing up CD'ing or transness. For me, though, it's a double-edged sword: how can you justify cleaving to gender stereotypes (as a man trying to look like a "sexy" woman) while simultaneously disavowing those same stereotypes? Now, if you're okay with such stereotypes and accept them uncritically, well, then, there's no problem. But this isn't my case.

If I'm to stay true to my feminist ideals, it seems I must abandon either the notion that gender stereotypes are bad (which I think they are) or my desire to inhabit and/or express those stereotypes through my crossdressing. (Of course, I could always abandon my feminist ideals... but, that, I'm not prepared to do.) This is the odd contradiction that thrives in my brain: I'm drawn to the "sexiness" inherent in (stereotypical) femininity while I recognize that this same sexiness can never be part of a humane definition of womanhood. Go figure! Probably this has something to do, as well, with why Lydia's SO cannot figure out why anyone who wouldn't need to would want to wear a bra. That which we seek to emulate comes with visible attributes we find appealing and which are in need of physical support.

When Rina and I are cleaning house, say, or doing the laundry, or whatever, we just split the chores according to our preferences, not according to whether or not this or that chore is "woman's" (or "man's") work (although I have to say that Rina isn't exactly, uh, handy, with a hammer--sorry, Babe ).

Here are lyrics from one of my favorite songs, Black Coffee, sung by a whole slew of divas, from Ella Fitzgerald to Sinead O'Connor:

Now a man is born to go a lovin'
A woman's born to weep and fret,
To stay at home and tend her oven
And drown her past regrets
In coffee and cigarettes.

How quaint. How amusing. Really? Then why do so many CD's entertain a fantasy of being maids or housewives? of "staying at home and tending their ovens"? Because we TG'd folks are the ultimate "enforcers" of gender stereotypes, it seems. We are generally "gender-reactionary"; we would never admit this in these enlightened times, but it seems we long for those days when women wore skirts and heels, stayed at home and made us meals, did their best to look pleasing, and were in charge of cleaning. Ah! the good ol' days! Uh, not! When Janice Raymond accused the male medical establishment, some thirty years ago now, of continuing to colonize women's cultural and social space by creating "artificial" women through gender reassignment surgery, she (obviously) focused exclusively on transsexuals. But the charge could also be leveled against crossdressers (I mean, those of us trying to pass as women and for whom the fetishistic aspect of transvestism is not enough to satisfy our soul). Our notions of gender are often so hoary as to be, at best, odd, and, at worst, insulting and demeaning to women. But, hey, this is who we are. Trapped. More so than most non-TG'd people.

When Rina and I discuss gender, it's usually in relation to workplace possibilities and expectations. There are still some folks out there who believe that the infamous "glass ceiling" is an invention of women who aren't competent enough to rise through the ranks of the male establishment. "Work hard enough," they say to women, "and you'll make it to the top, for sure." The sad truth is that, even today, "working hard," for a woman, still means "working twice as hard as a man, often for two thirds of the wage." I see this myself, with my own two eyes, whether it's the women I know in retail companies or in politics or in many traditionally "masculine" professions. I have the good fortune of having found my calling in the area of community health services delivery--a traditionally "feminine" occupation... which is one reason I get paid less than a counterpart in the "institutional" milieu, traditionally male-dominated (with the exception of nursing staff). Rina, who works in politics--also a traditionally male-dominated area--makes one and a half times my own salary. Fortunately, though, she works for elected officials who are all, with the exception of her top boss, female. So maybe the times, they are a-changin'.

To get back to Kimberly's point, yes, talking gender without talking transgender is sometimes helpful. What is femininity? What is masculinity? Can the two ever meet in one person? Can one be a "woman-identified" male (or a "man-identified" female) without transgressing gender stereotypes and roles (or, worse yet, dress codes)? Nothing is less sure, even in this day and age, it seems to me. Certainly, as a CD, I would say that it's not for lack of trying. Discussions on the topic of gender roles and expectations--even without the mention of transness--are always good, simply because they highlight the fact that we still have much ground to cover before we can, as individuals, feel more at ease with our own psychological tendencies and leanings, and before, as a society, we can stop frowning upon people who express alternate gender identities.

Great thread, Kimberly. Again, thanks!

Love,
CJ

Donna, ah yes the roller coaster of life. My wife also did the 180 on me and I have been lucky to get her back to the 170-190 range but never right on 180. And I am lucky that while it is not the the same as before, it is much better in different respects.

There are so many different factors in how each of us take CD and really every thing in life. Society, parents, siblings, grand parents, other family, friend, neighbors, co-workers, pastor, all who we know and interact with as we are growing up, and through out life, have an affect on each of us as an individual, how we react and what we believe in. How we deal, accept, reject, ignore CDing (and everything in life) for both the CDer and our Spouse/SO.

I have often wondered what one or multiple things triggered my wifes initial 180 on CDing. She has never shared, and I guess I have been kind of afraid to ask not wanting another 180 to happen.

As for how using this method works to start the communication, I know it will not work for everyone. But my hope is that maybe it will help at least one more couple to stay together and better their relationship. Just another tool to add to your tool box of life. One does not work for every thing or every situation. And some times you have the tool you need but it needs a different curve to it thus making it a new tool. So I guess you could say to deal with life we all have a custom set of tools in our tool box. But some times we are missing the tools we need, sometimes we can fine the right tool or create it ourself. And sometimes we are missing the tools we need and have trouble finding them before the need had gone by.

Lydia wrote:... She still cannot understand why anyone would actually want to wear a bra.

Lydia, I go through this will my wife also. My wife will be relaxing for the night or doing some work she brought home, and suddenly the bra will come off. At times my wife will make some comment towards my CDing or give me a look and who knows what she is thinking. But from the look I usually do not want to ask.

CJ, I have thoughts of a reply racing through my head but do not have time now to reply so will later.

Ok later, and more later and I have now read it like over half a dozen times.

And the only response I can seem to come to that CJ is WOW, yea. You have given so much to think about with in that. It is scary, it brings forth memories of my mind racing through thoughts like that. How can you get them down in writing before your mind races on to the next. You said " Can the two ever meet in one person?" I think within some of us yes is it can be possible. Looking over my life and who I am now. I always have been a mixed feminine and masculine male person.

KimberlyS

HI Girls,

In following up on CJ's query, as you may or may not know, I am a caregiver. I take care of a 71 year old lady, a former advanced engineering math teacher with an IQ purported to be over 160. She has a form of Alzheimer's now and were it not for me she would be totally bed-ridden. I do it all for her, bathroom, bath, changing her "diapers", feeding, (she is now on a feeding tube), transporting, etc. She seems to enjoy it when I dress her up, put her make-up on and take her out shopping. (Every girl likes that and she is a real cutie anyway.) She has no control over her bowels, does not talk, is developing Parkinson's but she is at home and that is the way her husband, a prominent attorney, wants it. I not only take care of her, but do most of the house work, laundry, cleaning, etc.

I can remember (in a former life) trying to convince people of the need for Long Term Care insurance. My main point was directed to the men, (some times groups of 150 or more) "how many of you would get your mother-in-law out of bed, take her to the bathroom, undress her, clean her butt, give her a bath, redress her and put her back in bed?" You know, kind of funny, in the five years that I presented this stuff, I never got one, NOT ONE guy to raise his hand to that!!!! Now I do it!!! Not my mother-in-law, but since my mother died when I was almost seven, guess I am doing my penance. The thing is, I enjoy it!!!!!

Is this a "female" characteristic?? To be or want to provide aid and comfort to another human being??

No one will ever, EVER convince me that I could do something like this except that Virginia is me!!!! I keep thinking of that line in the movie, "Flight of the Intruder" when Danny Glover says, "Cole, they ought to study you!" Well they can study me after I have achieved room temperature, but right now I am enjoying my "Magical Mystery Tour."

I am sorry, CJ, I have just not sat down and studied the whys and wherefores of who or what I am, I have just accepted it, I love it and I would not change it for the world. I am a world champion power lifter, I am a crossdresser and what I define as a NOTS = non-op transsexual. I don't know what, if anything, I could do about it even if I wanted to. For me, life is too short to analyse or over-analyse who or what I am. I am happy, I love who I am and as I have said many times, I am Virginia and Virginia is me.

I have been so fortunate to meet my SO, SL, through this forum and also in person several of the girls from this forum and they are without exception the nicest people I have ever had the good fortune to come in contact with. I also know that I would feel the same about many of those I have not met in person, but feel like they are my true sisters anyway!

I love you all and I enjoy so much reading your triumphs and your insight and even your queries about the whys and hows of who or what we are.

Finally, you also know how I feel about what we have, and no one will change my perspective of our having a "GIFT!" Love it, cherish it, bask in it, but most of all share it!!

Love you all,

Virginia

Very well said Virginia.It gives hope of reaching a goal when it is needed most.

Kim.......and others

The words of wisdom that you and the others impart are very good....I believe that each one of our SO's are at first threatened or scared of what they don't know or understand........I my case my wife knows of my disires and I always buy her some thing when I buy myself something. She is fine with the bras, panties and hose, she FROWNS on the outter wear. I would like to wear a skirt and blouse and makeup, however, she is highly opposed to it....the subject is hardly ever discussed. She is very conserative and I doubt she will ever change. I take what I can get and enjoy it


Lori

I have not read a comment more valid and to the point as the one CJ put up "Because we TG'd folks are the ultimate "enforcers" of gender stereotypes, it seems. We are generally "gender-reactionary"' - Right on.

Stay true to your feminist ideals. As far as I can see, its about the only hope the world has for continued survival. As the poet said "Its rush hour now / on the wheel and the plow / and the sun is going down upon the sacred cow." I would think that any CD in their right mind (whatever that might be) would be screaming, yelling, almost messianic in being feminists "I have seen the light Brothers and Sisters." But they not. Far from it.

& hey, what's wrong with fetishistic things? They bring a lot of people a lot of joy. So, they might be weird that your spouse can't get off unless there is a blow-up Mickey Mouse doll in the room, but at least its not The Shining. In doing a lot of fetish events (in a fetish epicenter to be sure) I've come to the conclusion that the people I thought in the beginning were the most warped people in the world, are, in fact, the best adjusted.

Hi all,

Tekla wrote: the people I thought in the beginning were the most warped people in the world, are, in fact, the best adjusted.

Ain't that the truth! It's taking me a lifetime to learn this, but learning it I am. That, and its (apparently contrary) corollary: we're all a bit warped but some of us are better at hiding it.

Love,
CJ

Tekla wrote:I have not read a comment more valid and to the point as the one CJ put up . . .

On the contrary, Tekla, everyone's comments are valid . . . it is just that you may be more personally identifying with the comment made by CJ, and that is okay.

I do hope that is what you meant to say, right?!?

- SL

OK, how about exceptional? In those few words CJ exposes a pretty soft underbelly in our movement. Or a critical flaw in the thinking.

Or, thought provoking? I've had at least three discussions (IRL) about this topic with people since it came up. Why it is that those who would seek to be more fluid in their gender, also sometimes seek to set the old style arbitrary rules in concrete?

Back to conversation, and saying one thing and meaning another.

Isn't it obsessional to work something (no matter what it is) into everything? And at first it might seem cleaver - but things that are clever, are, at best, too cleaver by half - in that eventually everyone will catch on. Just give them time. And once they do, they will probably see even more links in what you are saying than you do. (its that subconscious thing, and when you are laying it on this heavy in conscious, you can bet that the subconscious is working overtime.)

So... Clever is a short term solution, if you have a long term problem, avoid it.

That these discussions seem to evolve around gender, well, gender, in the broadest sense, is one of the most important social issues of our time. Indeed, the basic definition of the word, and the sense that it is used, is perhaps the critical fulcrum point of a major change in (western) civilization.

At the heart of that, is a discussion about 'what is, and what is not, masculine and feminine' and beyond that about 'what it is to be male, and to be female.' Beyond that is a redefinition of social order and a differing set of priorities about what is important, what is just, and what values should be rewarded and which ones not. No other system of organization proposed such a radical reordering of the value of work than the feminist movement. It indeed is at the heart of it.

I'm not a fan of conversations that are convoluted. If both parties are having one, in fact they are talking about nothing. (Think about it.) Look, If I'm talking about A, but I'm really secretly talking/hinting/eluding to about B. The other person might well be taking those remarks and thinking of them as C, and then doing the same deal is now talking to you in D. That's more degrees of separation than most of have from Kevin Bacon.

I named my second son in part after Harry S Truman. His autobiography was called, simply, Plain Speaking. I like that. Speak so that other people can understand you. To do that you have to pay enough attention to know who you are talking to. Then, you have to mean what you say, & say what you do.

Its hard enough for humans to communicate with one another - and very interestingly - in some ways it gets harder to talk to them about some things the longer you know them. We begin to take too much for granted. We begin to self-censor ourselves to the point where we don't say anything anymore. We know more places we should not go, and run out of place to go. That is how communication dies.

To the degree that you enter into another person's life, and that is based on saying what you mean, and the other person trusting (or better yet, knowing) that you will do as you say - and you know that about them - you have a lot longer to go to get to that point. Some conversations run out in a matter of days, some last decades, and some outlast the talkers themselves.

Obviously, if as everyone say's "Marriage is based on communication" (I don't think so, I think its based on economics more, but I'm a cynic; or its based on values, in which case I am a hopeless romantic) then those people who can have the longest conversation, the most volume of communication, are going to be those who stay together the longest. The more free you feel to tell things, the more you are going to tell, and the deeper it goes. I guess that's what scares people.

How many people in your life have you felt safe enough with, close enough to, to tell them you real feeling about anything and everything? (And I know you can't do that, way too much to tell, but about some area, with some person, you know the dark places in your soul better than I do - but have you ever told anyone that???.)