A question for CD's, from a friend of CJ's...

[CJ]

Hi all,

A couple of weeks ago, during one of our regular discussions on gender and transness, my friend and colleague Carole (a hetero GG) told me that the one thing she still couldn't wrap her brain around is the professed heterosexuality of men who've always felt themselves to be female. Her question is this: why do you have so much difficulty in mustering up the honesty and integrity to admit your own homosexuality (lesbianism) if, on the one hand, you truly believe you are a woman (however much trapped in a man's body) and, on the other hand, you aver that you're sexually attracted to women?

It was a thorny question, I admitted to her. I told her that it seemed to me that she was addressing the transsexual population more than the crossdressers. But she has a point. Even for me (and I don't define myself as "a woman trapped in a man's body"), there are times where I do, indeed, nevertheless think of myself as a "male lesbian." Then, says Carole, why do you call yourself heterosexual rather than homosexual? Is it a purely genital thing? In other words, is it merely the fact that, even when dressed or living as a woman, your having a penis under those skirts prevents you from considering your attraction to GG's as being homosexual in nature? Or is this due to some kind of repressed or latent homophobia? Carole is of the opinion that those of us who consider ourselves more female than male (regardless of our physical attributes and sexual characteristics) ought also to consider ourselves homosexual if the object of our desire is, itself, female. She's very puzzled by our inability and/or unwillingness to do this.

I'm being honest here when I say that I didn't know how to answer her question. I uttered some half-mumbled sounds in her direction regarding the fluidity of sexual orientation as a mirror to the fluidity of gender identity as well as the need to distinguish between those men that deeply feel as though they're women and those that simply want to satisfy some deeper need to express something about themselves but cannot do so in any other way than by pretending to be female. All my attempts to answer Carole sounded pathetic even to my own ears. She then suggested I ask this very question on the forum. So, here I am, asking it for her. Just to repeat it, as clearly as possible:

Why do you--a man wanting to be or to dress as or to pass for a woman (even if you rarely do so in actual fact)--call yourself heterosexual rather than homosexual in regards to your love for women?

Fire away, folks. I'll be relaying some of the answers back to her. Hopefully, I'll find some of the posts helpful in my own struggle to sort my feelings out about this matter.

Love,
CJ

[Lydia]

Hi CJ,

Here we are in a sematic flap again.

Definition: Heterosexual = the primarily (only) sexual attraction is for someone of the biologically opposite sex.
By logical extension:
Homosexual = the primary (only) sexual atrtraction is for someone of the biologically same sex.

If you try to define these words in terms of one's feelings for oneself, then we are in trouble. If you are biologically a male but feel like a female and yet attracted to females, by the definition above, you are heterosexual. If attacted to males, you are homosexual. Any other allocation is truthiness (see Colbert).

I think we should stick to biology rather than subjective feelings.

Don't even think about "bisexual" - we can go into deep philosophical and semantic confusion over that one.

Hugs,

Lydia

[Georgia(SO)]

This is one of the things that truly puzzles me as well. Less over the semantics and more over the feelings.

Here we go with a theoretical scenario - Let's call the man Tom - we'll make it easy and go for a CD who has no desire to transition and enjoys his male self. His femme alter-ego can be named Susan. Tom is biologically male and considers himself hetero because he is only attracted to biological females.

If Tom's sexual attraction is hetero - i.e. to someone of the opposite sex - then wouldn't it be logical that Susan's sexual attraction would be to someone of the opposite sex as well - i.e. a biological male? I mean, either you like the differences or you like the similarities...

This is why I don't have so much trouble understanding why my guy is attracted to women, but his femme person is attracted to men. It just makes sense to me. I find it quite interesting that HE is never attracted to men, and SHE is never attracted to women. Still, it makes a lot of sense to me and supports my theory that my sweetie is more bi-gendered than bi-sexual.

I don't, however, think that all MTF CDs who prefer biologically female sexual partners, regardless of whether your femme or homme side is up, are all homophobic - or lying. I think that there may be some difference between gender identification and sexual attraction - arises from different parts of the brain maybe? I mean, think about a non-TG'd bi-sexual person. She may well like big strong men and dainty femme women. That does not necessarily mean that she, herself, bounces from being a femme woman with the guys and a butch woman with the girls.

This is also, by the way, why so many single-gendered hetero people automatically assume that a CD is also gay. Most women like men - ergo if you are being a woman, you theoretically like men.

CJ, your friend's question seems to touch on the deeper meaning of being bi-gendered. I read the question as this - does a bi-gendered MTF identify as male, female or both. If you (not you personally CJ) identify as male, then is the female side just an act? If you identify as female, is the male side just an act? If you identify as both, is one stronger than the other? Do they carry equal weight in your brain - are they both (forgive me...) "real"?

Remember that single-gendered people just don't get this. I no more understand what it is like to be bi-gendered than I understand what it is like to be a horse. I can look at it, I can hear you talk to me, I can observe it from a distance. I can't feel it. Then again, I can't imagine what it feels like to have a penis either.... <cheesy grin>

I'm really curious about what the rest of ya'll say about this.

-georgia(so)

PS. Please forgive any clumsiness in my language. I mean absolutely no offense in any way.

[Absaroka]

As a heterosexual male cder for me it is the sexual attraciotn to women that makes the clothing attractive. But perhaps I am not the person this question is directed to.

Jennifer Boylan discusses this briefly in her book She's Not There. Her conclusion is that there simply isn't a word for what she was- a MTF attracted to women. Not a heterosexual male, not a lesbian, but something else. Perhaps with time she has come to think of herself as a lesbian but when she wrote her book she did not.

Absaroka

[Caith]

Sex - the physical genitals we are born with
Gender - the outward expression and presentation of who we are
Sexual preference - who we're sexually attracted to

Three separate terms for three separate areas of study, where the majority of people would say "either/or" but GLBT and intersexed people would say "there is a range of possibilities between the "either/or" choices.

For me:
Sex is male. I was born with a penis.
Gender is predominantly male, with a significant female component.
Sexual preference is for women. Whether my outward gender projects male or female doesn't change with whom I prefer to have intimate relations.

Looking at it this way, hetero- or homo- or bi- sexuality just aren't terms that can accurately describe my possibilities. They're a holdover from the days of "either/or", with the addition of bi- so the "either/or" terms can still apply.

Finally a hypothetical situation for you to ponder: If I dated a beautiful person like Delilah "Vanity" Cotero while presenting as a man, the majority of observers would consider us heterosexual polar opposites, male and female. Narrow-minded people who recognize her might consider us homosexual males. More open-minded people who recognize her wouldn't care either way. Which of these three groups do you consider "right"?

[Anita]

Oh, shades of meaning, shades of meaning; their shadows cast doubt over things that once seemed clear to ear and eye...

There--that's my attempt at duplicating a romantic English poet. (I'll stop now).

I'm with Lydia--biology trumps subjective feeling, in the case of an MtF CD being attracted to women. A CDing male might have strong feminine identity, but he's still functioning as a male, when it comes to sexual matters. So it's a heterosexual pairing.

But if an MtF transwoman is living fulltime, and is on hormones, then the issue is no longer so clear to me. Whether she's pre-op or non-op, she's not going to identify with maleness at all, nor is she going to be able to function as a male, because of the hormones. I might see her as lesbian, in that case. Most TG women I know do see themselves as women in that case, lack of surgery be damned. So they would probably take a lesbian label, if they were still attracted to women.

Georgia's argument makes sense to me, since that's how it works for me, too--when I'm a man, I'm attracted to women, and when I'm a 'version' of a woman, I'm attracted to men. It never worked well for me to try to be 'bi'--I couldn't understand male-to-male attraction.

I also am not surprised that the general public reasons that if you're going to dress up as a woman, you're probably doing it to attract men. None of us can say we dress up as women to attract heterosexual women, because it isn't true--they aren't usually attracted to us, and we don't expect them to be. Unfortunately, a heterosexual CD's sexual orientation doesn't automatically change just because he's dressing as a female, and he isn't neccesarily doing it to "attract" anyone--he's doing it because he wants or needs to do it.

I hope this answers some of your friend's question, CJ.

[KimberlyS]

CJ, for starters I think Carole needs to define who she is questioning this of, if she even knows the TG spectrum enough to answer that. But I do agree with your statement that it seems she is addressing the transsexual population and into the TG/CD's that want to pass and/or feel like a woman when dressed, more than the crossdressers that just like the clothes and if they do go out do not expect to pass, but just hope they can blend in.

It brings up the old debate of:

Is it better/more acceptable for our spouses and society to see us just as guys who like to wear feminine clothes,
or as guys trying to pass as a woman, feel like a woman, and emulate our image of what a woman is?

Yes the later is usually safer to do for us as CD/TG's, but is it better for and more acceptable to our spouses and society in general. Completely aside from what we want as an individual. But that is a debate for a different thread. But I think that may be a good question for your friend Carole. At least I would be interested in hearing her answer.

Even my wife is confused. She has said she married me for my less "masculine male macho" more "female feminine" traits and characteristics. So traits, characteristics, and personality type things are ok, but the clothes and feminine image is where my wife makes the cut.

I know I struggled personally for some time with the with the looking and feeling like a girl or woman and trying to pass that others talked about. Because I was not a woman and I did not want to be one, even when I dressed, or even pretend to be one. For me personally one of my greatest enlightenments came when I realized I was not trying to be a woman, but I was just trying to bring the feminine feelings I had in line with how society says they should look. Why I have this need I really do not know or care. It is just who I am. Who you are I am sure is different.

So for me I guess you could say I separated the physical male/female person that helps to create or conceive and carry. From the physical, mental and feelings of masculine and feminine. So I can be a physically male person with a mix of both masculine and feminine feelings, traits, personality and physical features. And one of the ways I got to this point was just looking at and dealing with the general human population. I am still looking for the all macho masculine male and caring feminine female. Unless you are blind, death, and can not feel, you should realize we are all a mix. Even at times the physical sex organs are a mix. And IMHO this and all of us are not a birth defect, but a natural out come of the very complex human development process which is also being affected by out ever changing environment.

Just me being different or difficult, trying to break and skew the mold that does not really exist anyway. I have rambled on enough.

KimberlyS-CD
joe in a skirt

[Lydia]

I think we are all playing with words here and charging the words with emotional characteristics. Leaving aside the rare genetic aberrations and hermaphrodites, we have two kinds of people: male and female. Within these categories we have the standard distinct sexual types, the non-op TGs (Virginia calls then NOTS), i.e, the crossdressers, and we have the surgically altered males and females. The difficult group to identify is the middle one, where the range is from the guy who wears panties to the full-time crossdresser.

The next, and distinctly separate, feature we have to deal with is the sexual preference, and we come up with the following table (--> means attracted to; M & F= male or female; G=genetic)

These four categories would include the crossdressers:
Type 1 - GM --> F
Type 2 - GM --> M
Type 3 - GF --> M
Type 4 - GF --> F

The next four categories are the surgically altered:
Type 5 - MtF --> F
Type 6 - MtF --> M
Type 7 - FtM --> M
Type 8 - FtM --> F

Note, however, that the above type are still individuals that are GM or GF.

Which of these 8 possibilities you wish to label as homosexual or heterosexual is a matter of personal preference. If course you must take into account all the possible combinations and permutations that individuals may take, and the fact that the preferences can change from time to time. Labeling individuals as Type 2 or 7 or whatever carries no emotional connotation or pejorative baggage. I see this as an advantage, and we can objectively discuss the causes and consequences of being a particular Type number.

You started another great thread, CJ.

Hugs,

Lydia

[Jennifer M]

I thought sex and gender were two seperate things.I know thats how I feel on the inside.My sexual preference for girls never changes despite which gender is "in control" at any given time.
That aside,one of the most important things I have come to understand from being with this group is the diversity within.It appears to me that no two people have the exact same feelings or experiences.That also appears to be a really good thing.With such diversity I cant understand how one,two or a hundred catagories can define everyone.
We are who we are.

[DonnaT]

It's a common suggestion that the our sexual orientation is separate and distinct from our gender identity. Seems that for many, this is true, or at least appears true. But for many, they seem to be closely linked. I reckon there are no absolutes in this world. As many of us have concluded, our brains a wired in many mysterious ways.

For the transgendered, there are many variations of this gender identity. I imagine there can be as many variations on sexual orientation as well.

That said, we live in a society that believes in only two genders, man or woman. Even the intersexed are considered to be either a man or a woman, when they clearly have, for the most part, characteristics of both sexes.

That same society, for the most part, also has two definitions for sexual orientation, heterosexual or homosexual. Thus they leave out, for example, the asexual.

Your friend Carole has demonstrated the foregoing.

Thus, labels limit our perceptions. People need to be open to the numerous possibilities that possibly exist.

Now, to your question:

Why do you--a man wanting to be or to dress as or to pass for a woman (even if you rarely do so in actual fact)--call yourself heterosexual rather than homosexual in regards to your love for women?

Because, given the limitations of labels on gender and sexual orientation, then I have to say I am a man, no matter how I dress, and there is no other "label" to choose from.

Maybe, choosing from the labels available in our society, Bi would be a closer label. Hetero when dressed as a man and sexually attracted to my wife. Lesbian when dressed as a woman and still sexually attracted to my wife.

However, if I said I was Bi, without adding the above description of why, everyone else would assume I was sexually attracted to both men and women. Since this is not the case, then Bi won't work as a label.

That is because the label assumes we are either men or women, instead of being transgendered or dual gendered or bi-gendered.

[DonnaT]

To the best my knowledge, most men who consider themselves women trapped in a mans body are not usually attracted to females, are they? I realize that some of them may be but I really think they are a very small percentage.

I honestly believe that what your friend is describing is a ts and not a crossdresser. My experience is that most ts's are attracted to males.

And my experience is quite different.

Based on the four forums I'm a member of, more transwomen I know remain attracted to women.

Some change, which may be due to the influence of oestrogen and/or the reduced influence of testosterone. Who knows?

Some even find themselves attracted to other transwomen.

But I'm sure both of us have a limited sample of transwomen to base our perceptions on. Thus we have come to different conclusions.

[Virginia]

OK, first, who is going to issue our diplomas?? Reading, studying, considering and thinking through all this is worthy of any Masters degree program at any major university, probably encroaching on a PhD. We are like explorers, explorers in areas that are seeing new things for the first time. A lot of us can say, "been there done that" but understanding the whys and wherefores well, that is entirely different.

We have on one plane someone trying to pigeon-hole us in a black/white scenario, someone else saying we are what we are and no explanation is necessary or needed, yet others are saying we are the results of our socio-environmental processes.

My contribution is that first: We exist, we being those who have a place somewhere on the "Cross-dresser's Continuum." So as has been eluded to there are two categories in our universe, those on the continuum and those who have passed through it and have transitioned. Now if we "ignore" if you will those who have passed beyond the continuum that leaves us with those of us (in our universe) who are on the continuum. Then we leave the physical aspects of the continuum, i.e., the various type, time, amount, etc that we dress and delve into the why and after the why we move to the for what reason(s) outside of the innate desire to dress. Some because they want to, some because they need to and others, because they have to.

We could write volumes in a category of "to what avail!" We dress to attract a male or a female or (for Virginia, because I just want to!)

I really don't know that there is an acceptable answer. However, if we build on the initial premise that "WE DO EXIST!" Then the answers following that will vary with virtually every self-respecting crossdresser as to the how, why, when, where, aftermath.


I will conclude with this that I have always said, "I am Virginia and Virginia is me." She takes me places, not physical but the entire emotional spectrum that are so wondrous that as I have also said, you would probably think me quite mad, so I will not share them with my sisters here, but I can assure you, they are quite real and I would not trade them for anything.

Love you all and the diversity that you each bring to our sorority!!!

Virginia

[Absaroka]

I have read the following statistic, either in Jen Boylans book or in Diedre McCloskeys book. Don't know if it's true. It was said that about a third of trans sexuals change their attraction after SRS, another 3rd retain their original attraction orientation, and about a third just become sort of asexual.

As I said I don't know if it's true but both of these are fairly reputable writers.

Absaroka

[Lucy Michelle]

Wondered about the same question only recently concluded there was no easy label, other than to say I'm attracted to females.
I'm quite surprised about the statistic quoted above. I would have presumed that the sex (or sexes) your attracted to after transition stayed the same as before transition.
Personally I don't do sex when dressed and tend to have the feeling that I want to be her than date her

[Sylvia H]

I think we're on to something.

The International Crossdressers Technical Institute

I nominate Virginia as 1st Dean(ette)



xoxo
Sylvia