Tri-ess

[Anne Bonny]

Hum! I wonder if the Tri-Ess FOUNDER would be open to the idea of Allowing Crossdressers to establish perhaps new chapters, original rules but with a statement in the documents that Only those who Crossdress and their families can apply for membership in "Tri-Ess-C" (for Crossdressers only) which would be affiliated with but completely separate from Tri-Ess since Tri-Ess is now controlled buy the Trans sexual part of our community. Rational being the focus of each group would then be free to focus exclusively with their members interests. I mean why should that represent any kind of a threat to the other branch of the overall organization? It is like being in a club with different rooms, each room free to focus on members who share similar interests?

It is bad that we who would never seek to transition because it is not the right course for us should have our organization co-opted with the original members ground under foot!? This is not a matter of conflict...It is a desire to be able to have the focus that we deserve to have. We are different and have different issues and as you say we are also bringing in our wives and families to help them to see we are the same person we have always been?

That is the only thing I can think of after all Tri-ess was founded to cater exclusively to the interests and needs of Crossdressers exclusively.

If You could obtain approval from Tri-Ess to start forming "Tri-Ess-C" groups I do not see a problem...we are not in competition because the issues of the nonop crossdressing community really are different from those who's entire focus is complete transition and the establishing of a new life in their new gender. What is the problem here? There really are some similarities but there are differences as well so that the majority will drive the focus toward their exclusive issues, while neglecting the other to the point where they feel their issues are being neglected and they have no choice but to leave. Crossdressers do not face intensive psychological screening therapies to qualify for various stages in their transition...hormones...hair removal...change of gender on documents....top surgery...bottom surgery...facial surgery...descrimination in the workplace....dysphoria that is rather intense...the issues with families because this is not just dressing but permanent change of their gender through surgery.

Crossdressers just face self acceptance, gaining acceptance of their families, assuring them that they are who they have always been...perhaps issues with wanting to go out into public, maybe being allowed to work ...this is a similarity.

Oh well I agree We do have a right to our own group exclusively focused on our problems and issues.

Of course I embrace and look up to our trans sexual sisters I have received tremendous help and input from them and have offered advice too...I still see us all as belonging to the same broad transgender community - transgender being a huge umbrella term. Think of all the topics...Wigs....specialized make up, forms, sleepwear, shoes...issues and how to deal with then and all the different guest who could be brought in for a presentation on their expertise...skin and hair specialists? Dues could cover speaking fees??


I do not really know how difficult it could be to establish a new group if "_____City (your city) crossdressing group" is part of the name and if documents were available for download which would allow any crossdresser so inclined to initiate an local group exclusively focused on the local crossdressing community. There could be canned presentations or suggestions for running meetings, activities like going to a local restaurant and how to arrange something like that. A chapter "news" flyer Featuring a Member of the quarter (bio, how they got started etc) hum? on second thought anonymity would nix this idea but there could be a topic of interest like...bras...types, styles which to wear with which tops....fitting etc, upcoming events or national news effecting our community. Next meeting we will focus on make up, a make up artist will be coming...please sign up to bring something on the list for the potluck after... Or next meeting we are going to carpool to X restaurant for an evening out together dress however you are most comfortable male or female attire...please come dressed or change in the facilities located here in advance of the meeting time. I am not sure of what legal protections would be needed if any...disclaimers...applications which underscore they must be a nonop crossdresser as a criteria for acceptance with referral to Tri-Ess if they are not due to the focus of the group. Certain behaviors could be excluded No foul language, must be appropriately dressed, No intoxication allowed, addicts excluded, Only G rated behavior is allowed as this is a family oriented club. No children under the age of 18 allowed.

You never know if you do not try... Perhaps if you had the "OK City Crossdressing group up and running for your enjoyment would you suffer from there not being such groups elsewhere? Who knows? Maybe you would be allowed by Tri-Ess to form Tri-Ess-C groups!? But no one can object and you would have complete freedom to initiate your own group. Why wouldn't there be interest on this site? You could give an address such as "_____City (your city) crossdressing group".com not sure how you get a web address or how much that would cost but suppose I could cut and paste this address into my browser...hit enter and then for say...for $100 have the right to download a complete package to initiate my own local group? As the network of groups grew this affiliation might have an annual convention somewhere or...other benefits as a national body? I mean I think it might be fun to have such a local group with perhaps a $10-$20 dues fee for every meeting (monthly or quarterly) hum holiday or seasonally themed meetings...raindeer or other holiday ear rings or jewelry hahaha- fun! There could be A finance person, a news letter person, and activity person...depending on size or it could be run out of your own home...no dues needed? If such a club existed locally I think I might be interested in joining...a place I could go to meetings dressed as comfortable but crossdressing encouraged and be with others like myself doing fun things and learning so that my presentation could be flawless...wow. We'd learn all kinds of things, and do all kinds of things whatever would generate enough participation and interest.

[Wesley]

Hum! I wonder if the Tri-Ess FOUNDER would be open to the idea of Allowing Crossdressers to establish perhaps new chapters, original rules but with a statement in the documents that Only those who Crossdress and their families can apply for membership in "Tri-Ess-C" (for Crossdressers only) which would be affiliated with but completely separate from Tri-Ess since Tri-Ess is now controlled buy the Trans sexual part of our community.

Actually Anne,

The currently existing groups have remained true to their original mission. I don't know how big the groups actually are. In talking with the founder, at length about the problem it was clear that they had to take a pretty strong stand on the transexual issue. To attend a meeting you first have to meet with a few of the senior members, who speak with the attendee about their feelings and reason to want to attend. When one considers that they went from around 40 active groups nationwide to fewer than 12 now, was a pretty serious loss.

I have to wonder what the current numbers of true "crossdressers" there are today as opposed those who have gone to the transexual route. This is one of the tradeoffs I am finding since the advent of the Spectrum theory. It seems easier for the younger crowd to accept the idea that they are trans instead of self limiting at crossdressing. There are certainly plenty of adherents to encourage someone that they are transexual as opposed to just being crossdressers.

So, in essence, there is no reason to form a new group. Tri-ess still exists. It is possible to start new chapters.

[Anne Bonny]

Oh! Hum! Well...fine then...

Transition is not for everyone...and many do and retransition back again I have even seen some transition, retransition back then transition again...on you tube.

Many of us are not candidates because our mind or gender is just not there.

[KimberlyS]

Anne, please quit generalizing information from the internet that is marginal or from questionable sources. This does you or no one else any good.

While I was part of Tri-Ess and the research I did, I initially did not like how they were only for CDers. But as I got into it more and personally dealing with a wife who was homophobic and anti CD/TG/TS/transgeder everything, I began to understand it more. This transgender spectrum is a lot for most of us to deal with. The Tri-Ess organization has been setup with a narrow focus of helping heterosexual couples deal with the cross dressing slice of the spectrum. Like it or not this is the goal of the organization.

kimberlys cd
joe in a skirt

[Anne Bonny]

I am sorry Kimberly...I will try. If I am driving away people such as yourself on one of my few refuges from the isolation of my own skull...I will be lonely indeed. I am sad...must be the gloomy morning...rain thunder and more rain this past week.... At least I run and it does clear out my mind rain or shine to think of other things.

I am inclusive...I like our community I feel we are all in this together. We are not all alike...we can not appeal to everyone and some will find us revolting and just flat out not like us just because! But I do hope to maintain amicable contacts here. I am not set in stone. I will probably never ever even be a member of Tri-Ess so what I think really doesn't matter at all does it?

Personally I enjoy mixing with the full spectrum of people here...I may not find fetishists, or BDSM, or those dressing underage or in period attire to my interests but we are all unique. I may not be a candidate for transition but I admire and find many of them to be mentors in a way, I do have some favorites.

There may be a point that one group may drive a local chapter one way or the other but I suppose it depends maybe they are in the majority and if they are focused on their interests well that is why groups meet together and were I a member of such a group I would hope to be welcomed and be treated in a considerate way because we all benefit ...everyone has a contribution to make in their own unique way.

[Wesley]

There may be a point that one group may drive a local chapter one way or the other but I suppose it depends maybe they are in the majority and if they are focused on their interests well that is why groups meet together and were I a member of such a group I would hope to be welcomed and be treated in a considerate way because we all benefit ...everyone has a contribution to make in their own unique way.

I find myself coming back to the same conversation points over and over again.

-There are still lots of crossdressers that would benefit from a CROSSDRESSING ONLY support group.

-Many would like to expose wives and sometimes older kids to the idea that dad is not a lone fruit because he wants to wear women's clothing.

-Dad (or whoever) is NOT GAY, Nor does he want to become a woman.

When people show up under the auspices that they "like to dress in womens clothing too," but conveniently don't mention they DO WANT TO CHANGE SEX, and attempt to co-opt the group, it is a disservice to the existing group. All too often, those people have destroyed 30 plus groups. That is about 2/3 of the crossdressing groups. If someone is growing up and is as that very confused stage and not sure themselves what is going on, they need a voice of reason, not someone trying to convince them they are transexual and need to change their sex. Such people are already very confused. They don't need someone explaining all about they are gender fluid, and can change at any time, or that being transexual is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

They have plenty of time to discover IF they are Trans. . . But only a short window to discover if they only enjoy crossdressing. More importantly, they need someone to explain the linkage between crossdressing, the big O, and how it reinforces the behavior. . and how over time they will seek greater needs (and stimuli) than just putting on sisters gym suit or moms crinoline dress. . .They need to understand that it is OK to say, "I have no desire to be a girl."

How many have been co-opted into believing they were trans, because someone who was well meaning told them so? It is a tough enough road in life. I feel we don't need to be shepherding them into the TG pin before they have Crossdressing figured out.

[Diana Michelle]

Wesley pretty much everything you said is 100% true however I will raise a couple of points for you to ponder. I am not going to debate whether TG's have hijacked Tri-Ess as that is an opinion and we are all entitled to our opinions. I will say I have seen over the years less participation by the CD in organizations. Perhaps it is due to some have more of a TG slant but from what I have seen most organizations try to be all inclusive and tailor meetings to those who attend and as the number of TGs goes up and the number of CDs down it only makes sense to slant programs that way.

One of the reasons IMO the opportunities CDs have to be out are far greater than ever. Back in the old days they would look for that one or two places where they could shop and feel welcome and maybe one bar and perhaps one or two restaurants to go to. Nowadays there is lot of places the CD community can feel comfortable and safe going. Add to that the internet offers many ways of meeting others of like persuasion support groups do not have the draw they used to.

How many have been co-opted into believing they were trans, because someone who was well meaning told them so? It is a tough enough road in life. I feel we don't need to be shepherding them into the TG pin before they have Crossdressing figured out.

Here I am going to take exception. I have been involved in various organizations as well way back when before and as I started my own life journey. I have never seen, felt, or tried to influence anyone into anything. I have worked with many as they have transitioned as well as talked with others considering it however I nor would any other girl worth her salt do that. If anything I have talked more wannabes out of going that route. I will also add here anyone who can be persuaded by a single or even a small group of individuals has some serious issues. The only person who can decide if they are TG is themselves and even then some choose not to act for whatever reason. If you feel you or someone else is being "sheperded" into such a life altering decision then I have to ask what other choices have you let others make for you?

[Wesley]

I will also add here anyone who can be persuaded by a single or even a small group of individuals has some serious issues. The only person who can decide if they are TG is themselves and even then some choose not to act for whatever reason. If you feel you or someone else is being "sheperded" into such a life altering decision then I have to ask what other choices have you let others make for you?

Lets consider for a moment what a person coming of age today, and discovering their love of feminine finery. What are they exposed to?

January 2017, National geographic, Cover issue "SPECIAL EDITION, the GENDER revolution, "The best thing about being a girl is now I don't have to pretend to be a boy."

Dec 2014, TIME Magazine, THE TRANSGENDER TIPPING POINT, "America's next civil rights frontier"

March 2017, TIME Magazine BEYOND HE OR SHE, "How a new generation is redefining the meaning of gender.

July 2015, VANITY FAIR, CALL ME CAITYLYN

Feb 2017 VOGUE Magazine, La beaute' Transgender

Sept 2014, NEW YORK Magazine, THE HIGHEST PAID FEMALE CEO, USED TO BE A MAN

VANITY FAIR SPECIAL EDITION, TRANS AMERICA, EXPLORING GENDER IDENTITY AND EXPRESSION.

Enter TRANSGENDER in google, 125,000,000 results,
Enter TRANSEXUAL in google 74,600,000 results
Enter CROSSDRESSING in google 35,700,000 results.

Enter Transexual advocates in google 316,00 results.
Enter Crossdressing advocates in google 168,000 results.

Here is the point Diana, these days, people are exposed to transexualism everywhere. On Television, magazines, newspapers, the news, you name it. It some ways it is almost in vogue (figuratively) to be TRANSEXUAL. What is a a kid who has just discovered wearing lingerie to think? Just the other day, a 9 year old kid committed suicide after expressing he was "gay" at school. Follow up articles indicate that he liked wearing dresses. Who explained the difference between "Gay" and the desire to wear female fineary? Apparently NO ONE. Mom was proudly aware of what was going on, but apparently it never occurred to her to tell him that some things are best kept private when you are young and that wearing a dress had nothing to do with homosexuality. She let it go on for 4 days before he committed suicide. Did the school bother to step in and stop the bullying or taunts? I am sure they had a NO TOLERANCE policy for bullying. Didn't do the kid any good though did it?

So, What is a kid to think? He discovers, as we all did that he likes female finery. What does he do? Where does he go for info? Right now the thing on everyone's mind is TRANSGENDER, Never mind that most kids who profess they want to be the opposite sex abandon the idea and develop normally. BUT! What about a kid that just enjoys crossdressing?

There is plenty of room if someone learns about crossdressing and later decides they are transgender, BUT If someone starts puberty blocking drugs or gawd forbid, overly eager parents help a kid to transition when he does not understand the difference, can be catastrophic for the person. Don't think it happens? google "Transexual regret."

That is not to mention the funding that goes with helping "transexuals" Key in "funding for Transexuals" and you will begin to get a grasp at the scope of the situation.

I have had too many conversations with Transexuals who adhere to the stupid maxim that the difference between a crossdresser and transexual is two years. It's not funny. There are plenty of people out there who would have NO problem telling a young confused person that they were really "Transgender," rather than encourage them to figure it out themselves. Face it even the term "Crossdresser" is in disfavor by many people.

Other than a very very few crossdressing and NON SEXUAL sites, who is out there holding a guiding light for just plain crossdressing?

[Diana Michelle]

Very interesting points Wesley. Obviously you put a great deal of research into this so I am not going to even attempt dispute or even question your facts.

As for the publications you cite I have read most of those articles. Now bear with me as I have recently passed into the class called senior citizen so my memory may not be that sharp anymore however I don't remember any of those articles urging the crossdresser to declare themselves transgendered and urge them to suddenly start transition and popping hormone pills. The slant of each was slightly different however they addressed the whys someone is transgendered and the issues and struggles TGs faced as they came to that realization and self acceptance as well as some of the societal issues. Most were positive articles and welcomed by the TG community especially in light of the negative press we are currently receiving from some factions here in the US be it from politicians or hellfire and brimstone preachers.

I saw the initial article on the 9 year old who committed suicide but have not done a lot of follow reading on subsequent articles. My first reaction was sadness that an innocent child who desired to express their true inner self was so distraught that they saw no solution other than taking their own life as it should be from any decent civilized individual. I am not sure the relevancy of stating not only was he gay and also liked to wear dresses to this issue nor see the need to explain the difference between being gay and the desire to wear "female finery." I would certainly hope the stereotype of the gay male being swishy and effeminate would be long dead by now. Stating he was gay and liked to wear a dress IMO only reinforces that what should be long dead stigma.

Did the school bother to step in and stop the bullying or taunts? I am sure they had a NO TOLERANCE policy for bullying. Didn't do the kid any good though did it?

Excellent questions however it should not be addressed to me or anyone here but rather to the school and Board of Education officials in this location. I will add that question it should also be asked of the parents of those doing the bullying? Do they not deserve some blame here as well whether it is through hate and prejudice they teach their children by example, apathy, or shrugging it off to childish behavior? I do not know about where you live but here in Michigan there are parental responsibility laws where a parent or guardian can be held civilly, financially, and in some instances criminally liable for the actions of their minor children. As for your question of "Didn't do the kid any good though did it? " I am at a loss for words. Not really sure what you are driving at here. Are you trying to imply we should not have policies and laws like this because no one follows them? To me it brings to mind images of the Wild West, 6 gun justice and every man for himself.

As for the media in general remember what the true objective is. Sure there are journalists, editors, producers, perhaps even some executives who will tell you it iis to inform and educate in a non biased manner and it should be. I do truly believe there are many out there who practice this however if you climb their corporate ladder those in the corner offices will tell you their purpose is to generate value for their stockholders. In plain English, profits! That is accomplished through sales and advertising revenues and ad rates are driven by readership or viewers or listeners which means you need to attract the general public and the easiest way to that is sensationalism. A headline of "Dog Bites Man" doesn't sell newspapers but one that announces "Man Bites Dog" does.

The proliferation of sources for information be it news or whatever has it roots in the 24 hour news cycle and the ever increasing outlets for it, each competing with each other for that one more viewer or reader. Google "online news sources" and see how many out there competing for your attention. As for the number of hits you get when you Google transgender or crossdresser what do they say or how do they say it? How many are true reliable sources or the rants of someone against the community? Of those proclaiming them to be informative how many are actually opinions? I have joked many times I read it on the internet so it has to be true. A friend once told me there are 4 sides to every story. Your side, my side, the truth, and what the media reports. How many of these articles fall into each of these categories?

As for children being TG it can and does occur while some don't come to that realization until later in life. I personally know a girl who came out to her mother at the age 15 and today is a wonderful 27 year old post operative woman engaged to a loving man who knows the whole story. It has been a while since I was a teenager but it is a confusing time of life to be kind and teenagers question everything from sexuality to the fact their parents really do know more than they do. As for a younger age, well when I was 5 or 6 years old I remember watching Roy Rogers and Gene Autry on television and wanting to grow up and be a cowboy. I am not saying that a child at the age of 9 cannot know they are TG or gay however children that age say and think a lot of things.

The vast amount of information available in most part on the internet may bring some to that understanding at a younger age, Still there are tried and proven methods of identifying the true TG individual from what I call the wannabe. A side note here the wannabe is where your "Transsexual Regret" comes from IMO. Just because you enjoy wearing a skirt and heels does not make you transsexual but sadly there are those out there who assume that.

Any individual regardless of age or parent who surmises or is told their child is transgendered needs to start with a qualified, licensed professional not instantly take action. Sadly many do not rather turning to the internet and start reading those 125,000,000 articles Goggle gives them after all Goggle is the ultimate authority in everything and everything out there on the internet is true, right? Some in the TG community deserve some blame here as well as they publish slanted opinions and in some cases outright mistruths. One can even purchase alleged "feminizing" drugs without medical prescription, a potentially fatal result. Why do doctors make the worst patients and attorneys the worst clients? The same goes for those out who self diagnosis or self medicate regardless of the circumstance.

As for the comment " the difference between a crossdresser and transsexual is two years." Well that ranks right up there with the greatest lies in the world such as "I'm from the government and I am here to help you." Personally I had never heard that one before but have have heard other comments which intimate similar. There is zero truth to that and anyone who pronounces that will probably offer to sell you a bridge as well. There are snake oil salespeople out there promoting all sorts of debunked ideas, stories, and conspiracy theories, why should the TG community be immune? Just because someone says it does not make it so. I go back to my earlier question of what other choices have you allowed others to make for you?

Now let us return to the original thought behind this thread, a separate support group for the heterosexual crossdresser. Personally I think the concept is excellent and admirable as depending on the actual study or pundit you ascribe to anywhere from 80% to 95% of those who fall under the umbrella of transgendered are heterosexual crossdressers. If anything the TG community has done itself a disservice lumping all into a single label.

As you have noted there has been a decline in membership and chapters in Tri Ess and similar organizations but you have yet to address the reasons for this other than blaming the evil transsexuals. As a post operative TG I find this offensive and knowing other girls like myself doubt it. Pardon my bluntness and the bad pun here but did all these former members of Tri Ess lack the balls to stand up and say NO! That is not the purpose of this group and if that is your agenda you do not belong here!

I nor any other girl I know would encourage a CD to transition without proper steps to determine if it is correct for that individual. Even if this individual is truly transgendered it takes a special determined individual to make it all the way through for that road is hard and littered with landmines and the corpses of those who didn't make it. Even those who have completed that obstacle course will tell you life is a lot harder on this side of the gender curtain with the issues all women face plus the stigma of "what you used to be" always hiding in the weeds waiting to jump and bite you in the a$$.

As I said your concept is a good idea but where is your business plan? First you need someone to take the initiative and get the ball rolling. Next you need members, but seeing as this is a highly focused group how do you screen your potential members? Written test? Interview? Letters of recommendation? Lie Detector? OK now that you have your members one of them down the road comes to the realization they are TG, what do you do? Banish them? What about the gay or bi-sexual CD? Are they eligible for membership or do you send them away to huddle with the wicked transsexual? You can laugh at some of these questions but they are valid IMO. Be careful of the litmus test for you may become a victim of it some day.

Wesley right about now I am sure you think I am degrading you and your idea. Nothing could be further from the truth! I think it has merit and would support you in any way I could. Lots of people have an idea for a small business for a niche product or market and let us be honest here you are aiming at a niche market. While some make it most small businesses fail within the first 5 years. They did not understand the logistics, the costs, the dedication required, research the marketplace, the potential, the consumers, and the true demand. Just because everyone in the neighborhood loves Grandma Mildred's peach jam means there is a market out there beyond the village limits. A support group is no different. Without a business plan it just remains a pipedream.

Other than a very very few crossdressing and NON SEXUAL sites, who is out there holding a guiding light for just plain crossdressing?

I nominate Wesley to be that guiding light. Anyone out there care to second the nomination?

[Wesley]

Diana,
The amount of material available for discussion is already head spinning, so I will try to address the significant issues.

My whole issue about the transexual phenomen is not to disparage transexuals. In giving so much attention to the issue publically, people develop a perception that is skewed. The perception that anyone who crossdresses is a transexual and wants to change their sex. The members of this board, generally know this to be untrue, but how about John Q. Public?

As for the publications you cite I have read most of those articles. . . however I don't remember any of those articles urging the crossdresser to declare themselves transgendered and urge them to suddenly start transition and popping hormone pills.

-I am not saying they are. Assume for a moment you are a 9 to 15 year old boy who just discovered the love of feminine finery. You are exposed to "Transexual" everywhere. Perhaps you have internet and you key in "I am a boy who likes to wear dresses" and you are meet with 375,000,000 results. The first is an article in the Chicago Times, "When boys wear dresses, what does it mean" and we find this:

At a time when there's increasing awareness of transgender adults, the youngest gender-nonconforming Americans are also starting to come forward. That includes the kids who are adamant about having been born in the wrong body, as well as a much larger group of kids who consistently and markedly defy gender norms, but in ways that aren't as easy to categorize. . .

I saw the initial article on the 9 year old who committed suicide I am not sure the relevancy of stating not only was he gay and also liked to wear dresses to this issue nor see the need to explain the difference between being gay and the desire to wear "female finery." I would certainly hope the stereotype of the gay male being swishy and effeminate would be long dead by now. Stating he was gay and liked to wear a dress IMO only reinforces that what should be long dead stigma.

I wanted to specifically address this. The relevance of issue is would seem apparent, We have a 9 year old boy, who by all reports liked to wear dresses. At 9 years old, he has not even began adolescence or puberty, much less had enough life experience to understand the term "Gay" and how it has nothing to do with his wearing girls clothes. So, where was mom? Did she not know the difference (Between "Gay" and "crossdressing") or did she not explain that to her child? Either way, the misunderstanding was the root of the bullying behavior that lead to his suicide. It should not have happened. And forgive me, but, gee, I wonder how he could have ever equated that wearing girls clothes at age 9 made him gay. (A common misunderstand in the public.)

As for your question of "Didn't do the kid any good though did it? " I am at a loss for words. Not really sure what you are driving at here. Are you trying to imply we should not have policies and laws like this because no one follows them? To me it brings to mind images of the Wild West, 6 gun justice and every man for himself.

-Nothing of the sort. Forgive the intonation of sarcasm in the original quote. My issue is that public schools have all but publicly proclaimed for some time that Bullying was over! and that the affirmative programs put in place had stopped it, case closed. One problem, it did nothing of the sort.

In an all too politically correct fashion, all public schools have done is put in place feckless solutions that do nothing. There is a fundamental misunderstanding in the social justice movement, that belies its profound misunderstanding of human nature. This kid was relentlessly bullied for FOUR (4) days, and apparently it went unnoticed by the staff. Sounds like a segment of the Comedy Central show SOUTHPARK, With Mr. Garrison proclaiming at an assembly, "bullying is bad. . .M Kay?" problem fixed. Except that every year, it seems we hear about an episode like this.

As for the number of hits you get when you Google transgender or crossdresser what do they say or how do they say it? How many are true reliable sources or the rants of someone against the community? Of those proclaiming them to be informative how many are actually opinions?

Just because you enjoy wearing a skirt and heels does not make you transsexual but sadly there are those out there who assume that.

This is the crux of the problem, Ms Diane. How is a 9 year old kid to know? What tools does he have to seperate good information from bad? The reality of the situation is that many parents, even if they know of the child's proclivity to crossdress would not, or could not take them to a licensed therapist. Much less a good effective one. As a result we basically throw kids to the wolves when it comes to sexuality. Kids are usually exposed to many bad influences as it is. Is watching a gay character in the TV show GLEE going to give an accurate picture to the average kid, let alone crossdresser? Likely not.

Some in the TG community deserve some blame here as well as they publish slanted opinions and in some cases outright mistruths. One can even purchase alleged "feminizing" drugs without medical prescription, a potentially fatal result. Why do doctors make the worst patients and attorneys the worst clients? The same goes for those out who self diagnosis or self medicate regardless of the circumstance.

From what I see, this happens way too often. Gawd forgive me, but lets not forget the number of pedophiles out there who would take advantage of a such a young person. Or those individuals that DO seem to have an agenda. As I noted in the previous post, there is money in transgenderism. Grants, social workers, counselor, mental health professionals (paid by the state). . .Not to mention extra money for schools that demonstrate they have "special needs children." One constant about government, "Maximum inefficiency for your tax dollar." I am not insinuating they have an agenda, but some do, and too many innocent kids get lost in the cracks.

As for the comment " the difference between a crossdresser and transsexual is two years." Well that ranks right up there with the greatest lies in the world such as "I'm from the government and I am here to help you."

Now let us return to the original thought behind this thread, a separate support group for the heterosexual crossdresser. Personally I think the concept is excellent and admirable as depending on the actual study or pundit you ascribe to anywhere from 80% to 95% of those who fall under the umbrella of transgendered are heterosexual crossdressers. If anything the TG community has done itself a disservice lumping all into a single label.

I totally agree here. The problem, from my humble perspective is that someone who crossdresses is more likely to be inundated with information that may lead them to identify as transexual when they only crossdress. (Let's remember, crossdressing is ON the sexual spectrum and considered to be a type of transexualism.) I think we all agree, that for many, there is much room for confusion and if you are regularly exposed to material that normalizes transexualism, it could be easy to internalize such ideology.

Also important is the issue of escalating behavior over time for the same level of reward. We start by wearing bra and panties in private, to underdressing, to underdressing with breast forms, to passing in public, to progressive feminizing. (hair removal, makeup, trying to develop breasts). Or some variant of these behaviors. In short many of these esculations over time are normal. But where does it stop? Once you start picturing yourself with real breasts, how far are you from the idea of "being trapped in the wrong body? Do you see my point? If one does not self regulate, is transgenderism the ultimate result? Either way, the long term results for SRS, depression is all too common. (google "depression in SRS")

As you have noted there has been a decline in membership and chapters in Tri Ess and similar organizations but you have yet to address the reasons for this other than blaming the evil transsexuals. As a post operative TG I find this offensive and knowing other girls like myself doubt it. Pardon my bluntness and the bad pun here but did all these former members of Tri Ess lack the balls to stand up and say NO! That is not the purpose of this group and if that is your agenda you do not belong here!

-I do not blame "Evil transexuals," Diane. Funny, I thought this was Crossdressers-haven and not Susans.org, transgenderpulse.com or TGforum.com. What happened with Tri-ess was much larger than any of us. I will note that many people in the local CD scene seem to be of the mindset that they are transexual but have no plans to transition or change sex. Are they really transexual or are they deluding themselves? My observation is that many are guilty of just that. But how to bring people back into the fold of bland crossdressing when many are drawn to the shiny object that is transexualism? Or maybe I am deluding myself into believing that I am "just a crossdresser" who is otherwise happy being a man? Judging by the lack of people in my area that self identify as crossdressers, I am starting to wonder.

Wesley right about now I am sure you think I am degrading you and your idea. Nothing could be further from the truth! I think it has merit and would support you in any way I could.

I very much appreciate that Diane. In chatting with the founder of Tri-ess, it is a problem that at the moment defies a solution. As I have breached the subject previously on this forum, with much the same result, I am starting to give up on the idea. I am not finding others who are comfortable identifying as just a crossdresser. It has fallen out of vogue and all the attention is focused on "Transexuals." I am at a bit of a loss and frustrated as well.

[Diana Michelle]

Wow! Lots to digest there Wesley and I am not going to even attempt to address all of them but there are a few I feel need to be discussed. First off and a pet peeve of mine. My name is Diana with an A not Diane. Enough said there!

Now let us speak to the 9 year old who committed suicide and the poor mother who you seem to want to drag into this discussion. This poor woman has enough to deal with in her grief, why try to make her feel worse by blaming her? First off no parent should ever have to bury a child regardless if that death is from disease, accident, murder, war victim, or suicide. To try to disparage her to make a point I find personally disgusting and weakens your arguments. I don't know if you have ever buried someone you loved as much as life itself but I have twice. Unless you have you have no concept of what goes through one's mind at this time. I am sure she has blamed herself for this regardless of whether it is true or not. Please find another way to attempt to make your point and let this poor woman grieve in peace and hopefully some day put her life back together and go forward.

A little background on me you may not know. As I have said I am a post operative transwoman. I sensed a difference early on probably around the age of 9 or 10 however back in those days even homosexuality was not talked about let alone being transgendered although that term was not around back then. Yes I crossdressed and there was a certain feeling then however there was more in my mind. It wasn't until I took a course in Human Sexuality in college, thought it would be an easy A, I learned a lot there and started to questions things still it was several more years before I sought professional help and even then it was another 2 years before I totally came to acceptance I was what was called transsexual back then. I began my RLT when I was barely 26 and had my surgery before I turned 29, that was June 1982. Would I have done it at even a younger age if the volume of information today was available back then? We don't know nor ever will.

Can a 9 year old really make a decision they are gay or TG? IMO no but I am not a trained professional. I don't believe at that age they can fully grasp of the concept of gay versus straight or TG versus cisgender at that age but that is just an opinion. Yes there is more information available and publicity today than ever but for a child to totally digest and process it properly I doubt that. Perhaps with the assistance of a trained professional it could be determined but not by lay people. Yes the publicity and the volume of information can put things into people's minds, the power of suggestion. The issue is the quality and accuracy of much of that information. You raised the point of the vast amount of information available through a simple Google search but no one rates any of it. This is a tough issue for an adult to deal with let alone a child. How do we address this problem? I have no idea without violating the right of Freedom of Speech but I am open to suggestions here.

You talk about how this 9 year old said he was gay and liked to wear dresses and ask if the mother had a talk with him or even understood the differences? I ask does it matter? Other than trained professionals and those of us who have lived it how many do you think could explain the differences between a gay crossdresser and a TG? I have no idea but I would suspect the number is quite small.

You are correct that executive orders, legislation, regulation, even Constitutional amendments do not change people beliefs regardless of the subject. If we expect true change it will only come through education and addressing the root cause. Children don't know how to hate or discriminate. They have to be taught that so where do they learn it? Some from their peers possibly but probably more at home or from hearing it preached to them in church, the authority figures they have been taught to trust and believe in. If they learned it from their peers where did that peer learn it from? Let us place the blame for this innocent child's suicide where it belongs not on a heartbroken parent.

You are probably correct that there was a no bullying policy but that did not nor cannot stop it as I have stated above. The question you should be asking here though is what did the school do to police and enforce it? As they say in business money talks and bullsh1t walks. Until some teeth is put into all anti discrimination edicts they are just words. No more slap on the wrist, no more well don't do it again, no more well boys will boys, no more he really didn't mean it that way, no more he is a star athlete so we look the other way. Time to stand up, strap a pair on, and make it happen! First offense a week suspension, 2nd offense 3 weeks suspension, 3rd offense go find yourself another school! And this is not just in a school year or even a calendar year but in your entire school career in that district. Any and all offenses will be noted on your permanent school record. Oh by the way any faculty member looking the other way or making excuses? First offense 4 week suspension without pay. 2nd offense You're Fired! Maybe if we start holding people accountable things will truly start to change.

Couple of observations here. You say even if a child shows a tendency to crossdress most parents could not or would not take them to a therapist like they were the same. When I went to school could and would had two totally different meanings, which did you mean or was it both? You have stumbled on a major issue though. It is just a phase he is going through or hide it away in the closet or close our eyes to it and it will go away, right? That is the reaction of many parents. As for seeing gay characters on television shows we are starting to accept the reality of they are out there. Would you prefer the return to the 1950's concept of a family a la Leave it to Beaver and allow our youth to learn these things in the back alleys and internet porn? It is not just good enough for a parent to monitor and control what their children are exposed to but also be there with open, honest answers and discussions when their children have questions or concerns regardless of the comfort level of the parent with the subject.

In my last post I spoke of the 15 year old boy who came out to her mother she was a girl. Obviously that mother went through a range of emotions and soul searching but loved her child enough to seek answers and contacted the closest LGBT organization. They put her in touch with an individual who first talked with the mother alone, then the girl, then both of them together and directed them to seek professional help. How do I know this? I was that individual who talked with them, helped them find qualified professional help and was there to answer questions from both of them through transition and surgery. I have done it before with TGs though none as young as Amanda and have worked with other girls since. This is what parents should do. Seek answers and help coping and accepting.

Please don't try to correlate information overload with the wannabe trying everything to prove they are TG because they are obsessed with wearing a dress. Yes many fall prey to the Pink Fog but that does not make them TG just yet another individual incapable of separating fantasy with fact. We all have a free will and capable of formulating our own beliefs. Sadly too many prefer to be sheep and follow rather than lead or stand up and say no. You know the type I am referring to here, we all know someone like that.

As for this being a TG forum rather than "Crossdressers Haven" where are the CDs? Their posts? Their concerns.? Their questions? I have been a member for about 4 years now and I can remember early on there would be a number of new posts and responses on wide ranging subjects almost daily and the lively discussions that ensued. Now there can be days between new posts. The question now becomes why?

I am going to pause here and take a walk down memory lane. Back in the dark ages of the 1970's as I was coming of age things were far different than today. We got our news from the local newspaper or one of the three networks on the television, our phone was something that hung on the wall in the kitchen or sat on the table in the living room attached to the wall via a cord, computers ran on punch cards, we listened to music stored on LP records or 8 track tapes, and the net was something you tried to hit the volleyball or badminton birdie over. I can remember growing up thinking I was sure I was the only one in the world who liked to wear women's clothes and would be banished to hell in the afterlife for it.

I grew up in a small town between Detroit and Toledo and after graduating college I got a job in one of the suburbs of Detroit and moved there. Back then there was one true "girl" bar in the Detroit area and it was located in one of the seedier neighborhoods just outside of downtown Detroit and a bar in Toledo that had Drag Night a couple of times a month. These were the only places a girl could feel completely comfortable going dressed for even many of the few gay bars around we were not really welcomed. Back when I first peeked out the door back in 1974 we would never think of going to a mainstream establishment.

Now let us fast forward more years than I like to admit to and arrive at today. You can see how things have changed. The TG community and the environment around it has changed just as much. In my bygone days most may admit that yes there were transvestites and homosexuals out there but were sure they knew no one like that, how many can honestly admit to that today? When I came out to my family in 1979 I had to explain what a transsexual was before being insulted and declared persona non grata. At least today one shouldn't have to explain the whats of TG however the insults and banishment still occurs too often. Then again even once is too often.

Hopefully you can see through my reminiscing how far we have come. Now there are mainstream places a girl can go and feel safe and even welcome. Bars to socialize at, restaurants to eat at, stores to shop at, even churches to worship at are all available. Perhaps the biggest factor in the changes for the TG community has been the internet. Now there was information available, granted as I stated before some of it bad but that is another issue to address at another time. Young CDs and TGs can now see they are not the only one out there. It told us where to go and not to go, offered help, guidance, support, and even was a way to connect with others be they 2 blocks away or halfway around the world. Even websites popped up offering suggestions where to go complete with reviews. These were all only available in the past through whispered word of mouth or support groups like Tri Ess and in the early days of the net a few sites like here. That IMO is the primary reason for the decline of Tri Ess, CD support groups in general, and many websites such as Crossdressers Haven.

I am not saying this is healthy for the TG community. In fact I believe the exact opposite to be true. First as I have said before there is a lot of bad and even misinformation out there and no way for many to know the difference. A little knowledge is more dangerous many times than none at all. Next there is a comforting reassurance in a face to face conversation and maybe that hug when we are down that will never come from a text or video chat. Another issue is with the proliferation of online information sites and vendors also comes the onslaught of snake oil salespeople and con men offering everything from overpriced clothes to support to feminizing products. I am not saying all are like this but they are out there and admit it or not all of you know they are and can possibly name a few.

All this opining is well and good but in reality not that different from that guy wearing his boxers and wife beater sitting in his favorite easy chair with a beer in his hand cursing at the news on the television. The issue for us is not what was but how it is and what can we do to change it? Wesley you feel there is a need for support groups targeted at the heterosexual CD and I agree with you. My question to you though is what have you done personally to bring that from thought to reality? Bemoaning bygone days, trying to place blame, and sitting back trying to shoot holes in other's arguments accomplishes nothing. Actions speaks louder than words!

I want all of you to sit back and think of the proverbial ladder where the bottom rung is totally in the closet and the top one every girl being able to be totally out, go wherever they desire dressed as she wants within reason, free to express themselves with out fear of discrimination, hatred, and bigotry, being ostracized, and even free from the fear of violence. There are as many or few rungs on this ladder as you care to make it, makes no difference nor where you see yourself on it. To get to that top rung we all need to take that step up to the next rung and I challenge each of you to do that. Makes no difference where you see yourself on that ladder and how many rungs you believe you have already climbed or are above you even that one small step up will take us all to a new level.

[Anne Bonny]

I am out on this one. In theory being able to meet others like myself in person sounds good but we are a very diverse lot...diverse in who we are in this community....diverse socio-economically....politically....morally....in our sexuality....substance use or not....age too! I think it would be very stressful to drive somewhere then get out of the car and enter the building not knowing what the hell I am in for! Of course could be just fine...I could be welcomed...and I might find gee there are quite a few here just like myself? Who Knows. It might be a little like that bar in star Wars I ...no I am not into SiFi or Star Wars just remember...I did see it...and it is a good analogy. I mean if you meet in a group you want to meet people who are similar to who you are so that you feel comfortable and share things in common. I do remember the old documentary from the 90's "All Dressed Up and Nowhere to go" during a segment they filmed a meeting that appeared to be a very successful group...lucky to be them...that I would not have minded being with. Thing is I am on the Gulf Coast and the largest cities are roughly 2 hours away which is inconvenient. If there were a group locally I might be interested in checking them out, attend in the male to see....certainly try to contact them prior...the idea appeals in theory and if there were the full spectrum present...I have no problem and feel if they get along with me, I have no problem with whoever they happen to be. I bet if the trans gals here were in a room? They would greet me and give me a chance. There are things we do share in common...and that is in some way we all share inside a similar thing we feel female inside to one extent or the other and we express that one way or another some fully all the time, some in private periodically but we could certainly benefit from encouragement, tips, and sharing time together. I don't mind listening to whatever they may be talking about it is all interesting.

________________________________________
Hi Diana, noticed your long post, but posted first then went back up knowing it would be a good read worth the effort.
Yes, interesting to see how everything has evolved over the years. I too became aware I was different at age 8-9 about 1966...and from the closet believing I must be the only person in the world like this...to discovering our community on the internet...then years of personally figuring it all out which never seems to end. I know who I am but even now there is progress and growth that will come till the day I die.

I had seen the fall of in posts here as well...wondered about it all and agree the info is on the internet but the only place I can interact with others who are like myself is on this site which at some point in the future may also disappear, I will miss it but suppose I need to start searching locally because the community is here too locally I have seen some events but I am afraid are the differences too great? I may never find another companion but know any future companion will have to know all about who I am and then still feel attracted to me and love me. I cannot live with anyone who cannot accept me...I just cannot go have my hair shaved back to a couple inches...only dress and be male and act male always to the end...it's impossible because I am ... I feel female and cannot live without every being able to express who I am inside I am not able to be male consistently just cannot live that way. Yep...I cannot live without being able to be who i am and I also need love. I have received great benefit here. I suppose I should begin to look locally...

I am in the process of trying to find myself again...I lost myself when my wife died and had already retired in 2010...I do not want to do anything but having a purpose is something we all need ....a reason to get up in the morning. We all need love, community and companionship...I need to reconnect do I still really enjoy what I used to enjoy? I don't know Oh well it is another day. Later Diana...

[Anthony Simon]

I am not finding others who are comfortable identifying as just a crossdresser. It has fallen out of vogue and all the attention is focused on "Transexuals." I am at a bit of a loss and frustrated as well.

(IMO) It would be more correct to say that attention is focused on TG as an umbrella term that avoids the negative connotations people associate with crossdresser (Note: I don't see it as the same as TS). Those negative aspects are to do with the sexual aspects and etc., remaining from the stereotypes in our culture.

On the positive side, I would say most people don't really know where they stand in the spectrum and "being TG" just enables them to not have to make a hard and fast choice they're uncomfortable with.

FWIW, TG doesn't seem to fit me terribly well. I am certainly a crossdresser - but, on the other hand, I do kind of turn into a woman when I get dressed up (and at other times). I just don't feel trans anything. I feel I am me - trans seems to imply crossing from something rather than being something.

I was thinking about the problem of keeping a group started for CDs as a group for CDs - and it occurred to me that a way to do it might be to define it like that and yet leave the actual stuff you discuss relatively loose - so you could include TSs and TGs under your banner (which would allow in people who don't really know where they stand). But...

If you got to the point where people wanted to have a TG (or TS) group (or it became obvious that there was what the CD group was becoming), you could have some sort of process where they go off and form a sister group (or more than one).

[Anne Bonny]

Yes! It is simply about being who I happen to be inside...I do sway...umbrella term...that's ok...I like to feel I am surrounded by a community of others on a spectrum it gives me a secure feeling knowing that I am here and am surrounded by others and we all support each other. Terms are something to move away from but how do we talk about who we are without them? Yes, I am who I am that is exactly it it's who I am inside.

[Wesley]

My name is Diana with an A not Diane. Enough said there!

I sincerely beg your pardon, I assure you it was unintended. Diana it is.

Now let us speak to the 9 year old who committed suicide and the poor mother who you seem to want to drag into this discussion. . . Please find another way to attempt to make your point and let this poor woman grieve in peace and hopefully some day put her life back together and go forward.

I am going to speak frankly here. There is a reason that I addressed the matter in the first place and it relates directly to my salient point. Lack of infomation. The child, apparently had no resource whatsoever to consult with, and when he did confide to his mother, mom herself stated that he came out to her in the car as "gay." There is no evidence to support that he was gay, but other comments did belie the fact that he found comfort in wearing dresses. Mom apparently did not know the difference between gender exploration and being gay, nor did she apparently have a heart to heart with the child to tell him that sharing the idea with classmates might not be a good idea. As we all know, children and adolescents can be very cruel. They were in this case. Sorry, I find it difficult to believe that mom could not foresee that consequence. WORSE, when the children did turn to cruel taunts she failed to contact the school, pull him out of school or address the issue over the course of FOUR DAYS.

She apparently made no effort to contact a counselor, or anyone else that could help. Had someone truly understood the problem from the outset, this tragedy could have been avoided.

Can a 9 year old really make a decision they are gay or TG? IMO no but I am not a trained professional. I don't believe at that age they can fully grasp of the concept of gay versus straight or TG versus cisgender at that age but that is just an opinion. This is a tough issue for an adult to deal with let alone a child. How do we address this problem? I have no idea without violating the right of Freedom of Speech but I am open to suggestions here.

You talk about how this 9 year old said he was gay and liked to wear dresses and ask if the mother had a talk with him or even understood the differences? I ask does it matter?

Yeah, it matters. It matters in this case as there was no father present to say WAIT A MINUTE SON. . . You might want to keep that to yourself until you understand what it all means. Just because you do something today does not mean that is set in stone for the rest of your life. You also need to know that if you tell your classmates you are "Gay" many of the kids are going to be very cruel to you and treat you badly. This is one of those basic life lessons that single mom was not able to deliver. (No, I am not ragging on her for that. But really, who among us has no clue that young boys can be real A##holes.) It matters because it apparently never occured to mom either.

WE ARE WAY OFF TRACK HERE DIANA. This is incidental to the issue at hand

Couple of observations here. You say even if a child shows a tendency to crossdress most parents could not or would not take them to a therapist like they were the same. When I went to school could and would had two totally different meanings, which did you mean or was it both? You have stumbled on a major issue though. It is just a phase he is going through or hide it away in the closet or close our eyes to it and it will go away, right? That is the reaction of many parents.

What I am alluding to, it that for a great many parents, the ability to take a child for counseling is very limited. They don't have the information, and in many cases do not believe they could afford it. Additionally, a number parents are suspicious of mental health professionals. All in all, many reasons why parents would not take a child for counseling. When my mother discovered a bra and panties hidden in my bedroom in 8th grade, she left them on the table for me to find when I came home. When SHE got home She asked me about it and told me it was not acceptable. That was the end of it. My father told me many years later that she had told him, but he had not thought about it. At least they gave me a copy of *Everything you always wanted to know about sex but were afraid to ask, by Dr. David Reuben. I knew instinctively however that telling classmates was not a viable strategy.

Please don't try to correlate information overload with the wannabe trying everything to prove they are TG because they are obsessed with wearing a dress. Yes many fall prey to the Pink Fog but that does not make them TG just yet another individual incapable of separating fantasy with fact. We all have a free will and capable of formulating our own beliefs. Sadly too many prefer to be sheep and follow rather than lead or stand up and say no. You know the type I am referring to here, we all know someone like that.

Well and good in theory. But in the previous paragraph, you explained how a best case scenario worked out. But that is not reality for most young men and boys who discover a predilection for feminine finary. Most fall in that category where parents don't go for counselling and rarely know those answers themselves. So what are they to do? I freely admit, I don't have answers.

As for this being a TG forum rather than "Crossdressers Haven" where are the CDs? Their posts? Their concerns.? Their questions? I have been a member for about 4 years now and I can remember early on there would be a number of new posts and responses on wide ranging subjects almost daily and the lively discussions that ensued. Now there can be days between new posts. The question now becomes why?

Hopefully you can see through my reminiscing how far we have come. Now there are mainstream places a girl can go and feel safe and even welcome. . . . These were all only available in the past through whispered word of mouth or support groups like Tri Ess and in the early days of the net a few sites like here. That IMO is the primary reason for the decline of Tri Ess, CD support groups in general, and many websites such as Crossdressers Haven.

And that may be the reality of the situation. There is less stigma attached today, but this is still not a world that is universally accepting. As I noted in a much earlier post, I suspect there are many heterosexual crossdressers who would like the support of other heterosexual crossdressers. Such groups are exceedingly rare.

. . . as I have said before there is a lot of bad and even misinformation out there and no way for many to know the difference. A little knowledge is more dangerous many times than none at all. Next there is a comforting reassurance in a face to face conversation and maybe that hug when we are down that will never come from a text or video chat. Another issue is with the proliferation of online information sites and vendors also comes the onslaught of snake oil salespeople and con men offering everything from overpriced clothes to support to feminizing products. I am not saying all are like this but they are out there and admit it or not all of you know they are and can possibly name a few.

. . . Wesley you feel there is a need for support groups targeted at the heterosexual CD and I agree with you. My question to you though is what have you done personally to bring that from thought to reality? Bemoaning bygone days, trying to place blame, and sitting back trying to shoot holes in other's arguments accomplishes nothing. Actions speaks louder than words!

I cannot argue that one bit. In my case, the threshold is knowing there are at least a few other like minded individuals within a reasonable distance. People I sit down and have lunch or dinner with and discuss the issue of forming a viable group in this area. Forgive the analogy, but I feel like i am standing alone in the middle of an empty field performing some obtuse act, while a few people stand a comfortable distance pointing asking "What's wrong with that fool?" I am close to walking away from the idea as there does not seem to be anyone else in a 25 mile radius even remotely interested. If anyone asks me, "Can you be a heterosexual crossdresser? My answer is tending towards, "I used to think so, But there is no one like that around here."

I recognize there is only so much I can do as a human being. If everyone in the area insists they are Transexual, who am I to tell them they otherwise? Why keep bashing my head into the wall?

I appreciate the positive thoughts and engaging conversation, but as noted, despite two years of looking at restarting a heterosexual crossdressing group and not a single supporter in the area, there is nothing more I can do if I can't even find another person willing to commit. I am content with my own crossdressing and I am just don't see any advantage to concerning myself with it anymore.