Women as cross dressers

[Charlene]

ahem . . . I spotted the door open here . . . so I thought I'd do a bit of peace making . . .

the civilized way to make a convincing point is to present clear, conclusive and replicable evidence along with it. The evidence alone would speak louder than any hype or rhectoric that came before or after.

Even "authorities" have to present their evidence, because without evidence, anything that follows "I think" is meaningless whether it was uttered by an "expert" or layman.

(any kind of bashing, even with clear evidence, voids the point one is making for that entire thread.)

I suppose what I'm asking now is this: show me the research evidence from a scholarly journal or publication that supports the statement "women are holding a clear double standard". If it is as "clear" as stated, one should have no problem coming up with something. If one can't come up with anything, then the statement HAS TO be regarded as false.

Thank you for your understanding.

I was really dissapointed that this topic was locked but I feel a little bettter that is has been opened.

I'm not sure if this comment by Alexandra was aimed at me. I'll answer it anyway. This thread asked for an opinion and I gave MY opinion.

It had no intention of bashing as I use this logic. If everyone here believes that it's OK to crossdress for Genetic Males then what would be offencive for my belief that GG's crossdress?

Right now I'm thinking that I must be a lot older than most people here because I remember a time in my lifetime that women wearing any kind of pants were unacceptable.

I'm sorry if my opinion has offended anyone, but it is still my opinion and I won't state them anymore. I'm sorry.

[CJ]

Hi Charlene (and everyone else here),

You know, I'm really glad they unlocked it too; it'll give us all a chance to clear the air. I don't think the women on the board were offended by the opinion some hold that they may also be crossdressers; rather, upon re-reading the entire thread, I think they they may have been offended by the suggestion that they (that is, women) are the ones that hold a sartorial double-standard. That's just untrue: it's society as a whole that entertains such unfortunate notions--men as well as women. I don't think there's a single soul on this board that can justifiably be accused of hypocrisy (even if there were, doing so publicly is uncouth, hurtful, and makes the air in the forum volatile, opening the door to possible flame wars; rather, get in touch privately with someone you've got a bone to pick with so that you may have a better chance at dissipating any misunderstanding).

The idea that women hold a double-standard regarding the clothing options available to men just doesn't square up with our (that is, male crossdressers) strongly held opinion or belief--stated elsewhere on this forum--that it is, in fact, women who are much more accepting and open to the idea of a man in a dress and heels than most men are. Please, let's not bite the hand that feeds us!

On this beautiful, peaceful, and mellow (if rainy) Christmas day, I want to apologize to Lefty, Sharon, and all the other GGs out there in Gender Wonderland if anything said in this thread hurt you or insulted you. As Shalindra and others have said, I honestly believe that wasn't the intention even though an unfortunate phrasing of the topic may have had that very effect.

Charlene, by the sound of it, I know you probably feel a little bit hurt also by the rebuff, but masking your opinion won't help that; in fact, it will defeat the purpose of this forum: to exchange views and opinions and ideas, to learn from each other, to find community and support, to allow ourselves the space to be more fully who we are than is otherwise possible in the "real" world (it seems to me this here world is "realer" than the one "out there" in many ways!).

To all the girls out there (genetic or otherwise) and to the guys, I wish you heartfelt peace and an abiding delight in your own uniqueness.

Love (and hugs to all),
Christina

[Nancy]

After 34 years of being married and living with the same fantastic, loving and caring, woman I still managing at times to say and or do the wrong thing, when I really don't mean to. I should pass on this topic however, I do think women(GG's) have much more freedom to express how they are and feel with the selection of clothes they can wear and the different kinds of make up and accesories as compared to what men can wear and use to express themselves. Now that to me does not make women CD'ers if they wear even clothes that are made for men.

Another thing to me about this thread is I see the GG's that are supportive of their CD partners the true pioneers in all of this. We have to live it because it is who and what we are. The wives and SO's that support us do so out of love & caring even thou to do so is often against their social status with other women and other social standards.

It was the other GG's of Tri-Ess that helped so much to bring my wife and I closer on so many issues. I hope I am not way out of line here?

[Beauty]

Hi Nancy,

No you're right in line.

Congrats on your beautiful marriage of 34 years!!

Christina was right Charlene. Don't Give Up On Us Baby (ok, that was a plug for the song thread ) but I do mean it. If you only meant you'll be quiet about this topic I understand though. This is a hot topic and I'm very sensitive about saying anything here. Still I'd be sad if you weren't in other threads not letting us see who you are and getting to know more about you.

Beauty

[Charlene]

I re-read the thread and I'm sorry I jumped to the conclusion I did.

I'll try to read a little better in the future.

[Beauty]

YAY US!!

(She's back!)

Beauty

[Alexandra]

charlene, no, my comments was not directed at you. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

everybody, obviously this was a good topic to bring up in the first place . . . heavens forbid we limit ourselves to non-controversal topics! All opinions are important -- no opinions are ever "wrong"!

beauty, while this thread may have intially started as a voicing of an opinion, unfortunately it also took a somewhat different direction by the issuance of what is called a "bold statement" ("women hold a clear double standard) AND a poll.

What I'm saying is that the issuance of a "bold statement" and a tally showing agreement by a large percentage of people with the "bold statement" DOES NOT mean its true. At this point we don't know if its true anymore than we know if its false.

We were headed down a slippery slope (like many other places on the net) where misinformation becomes fact.

[LeftyRainbow(SO)]

I'm also glad you're back, Charlene (and thank you to all who were thoughtful enough to consider others feelings by apoligizing for any misunderstood posts).

Just like CJ and Alexandra said, the topic is certainly not the issue.

It was just some of the wording.


I'm glad to see this post turn around (not in opinion but energy)

having said that I've also reread this thread and I think the point I was trying to make was that

While I agree that it is more accepting for women in society to wear men's things as opposed to men wearing women's things in this day in age,

it is not crossdressing unless the women wearing men's clothes are trying to identify with the male gender and vice versa.

[Nancy]

I guess I should also add this to my previous post on this thread?

When I stated that women (GG's) have more freedom to express them selves as far a how they dress and are made up then men do, I also should have added, that this freedom of expression did not just happen or has it always been this way. Women had to fight for the freedom of self expression. We as CD's would like to have this same right but unless we are going to fight for it ourselves it's never going to be or just given to us.

Now it did help women to win this freedom of expression just in having the number of women that there are as compaired to the number of CD's. However, then again is it the number that makes things right for some? Oh Nancy, go get some coffee. Good morning girls and what a nice morning it is.

[LeftyRainbow(SO)]

Good point Nancy !!!!!

I also know of many GG's who would fight alongside with the TG community to be able to have that freedom of expression (in public not just in their homes). I am one of those GG's .

Physical safety of our loved ones is the number one concern for supportive GG's when crossdressing in public is involved.

Strength in numbers, ladies!!!!!

(it's not the numbers that make things right but that get's things noticed, especially when politics are involved)

[Beauty]

I'm with you Lefty. Great point Nancy!!



Beauty

[Karen Marie]

what this is really all about is letting people of either gender express
who they are.my wife is very tomboyish.she wears jeans and has her
hair cropped real short like a boy.i on the other hand,am the more feminine of us.in mannerisms and dress.we love each other very much.
but more importantly,we respect who each other is.remember,the per-
son thats inside is the most important.

[Kersten Lee]

Hi,

I have commented about this before, but for those who missed...

My wife isn't into the feminine adornments. She has no desire or need
to pretty herself up for herself, me or others. 29 years ago I tried to
shop for her. She hated it. Then as I dressed more and more and then
when I wanted to go out to feel complete, she had big problems with that.
I have called her lots of bad names over the years. I argued that you
dress as a man and why do you hate so much that I love dressing
feminine.

At least in my marriage I learned in therapy and by being open that my
wife definitely is not a crossdresser. She is who she is but has no feelings
desires or ideas of being male. What hurts me is that society accepts her
as female but for me to dress as a woman it is a sin against nature.
She is never mistaken as a man, and that's the difference.

I dress to feel and connect to my female mentality. Society generally
see this as an act to deceive rooted in sexual betrayal. The woman
in our state who was killed only because she portrayed as male and
or was transgendered was a crossdresser. It is so hard to understand
how these young men were so threatened that they killed her.

I have no facts but I think men are more prone to doubt their sexuality
than woman. Of the woman I have encounted while dressed have been
very kind to me except for the one I caught of guard and embarassed.
And she still helped me and was courteous. I am starting to think that
more and more people are learning to accept diversity.

Anyway I have been doing better to see people for who they are, not
by their car, house, position or the dress they are wearing.

Feeling much better,
Kersten

[Loretta Ann]

Glad you are feeling better Kersten.
It good to see you posting again.

[Josey]

Hi Y'all,

Wow, after some of the friction I have seen generated here, I am hesitant to post something but my mind is saying "Oh, go ahead. Be a man, or whatever you feel like being at this point in time!

I have read many times that history can teach us a lot. Don't get me wrong because I have found myself irate at times when in a mall I see women dressed in very manly clothes and I can't dress the opposite. I feel hurt and insulted. Then, I grew up. I started looking at the woman's role historically. Here's a short (I promise) synopsis.

IN the 30's, women wore dresses or skirts. A woman in pants was virtually a no-no. Then came the forties and the men went to war. The women went to work in factories and doing what was typically the man's job. They dressed appropriately. After all, you couldn't wear a shirt waist dress while crawling along the wing of a plane installing rivets, now could you? The war ended. Did women go back to dresses? Yes, some did. Others liked the idea of working and continued to do so. As time went on, woman's role changed to an income producer and a sharer of financial income responsibilities for the family. Most women at these times worked not in offices but in factories and jobs that requied wearing of pants and less feminine attire. You see where I am going with this? Times changed and so did the role of the woman - radically! On the social plane, their lives and responsibilities have come a lot closer to equalling that of the typical man and so has their style of dress.

Now, over fifty years or so, if all men were willing to assume the role of the thirties woman, perhaps our dress would change in that direction also. Personally, I don't want that to happen. I am quite happy to be where I am with the capability of being able to put on frillies as I desire but to be a man when I wish. As for the women, I absolutely love them just the way they are. If that's evolution in progress, then GG's have done a great job.