Talking about feelings... worse than pulling teeth.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Elizabeth,

I think everyone understands your point of view (and many agree with it--you're certainly not alone there). But, again, what I was trying to get at is why, in the face of acceptance (or, at least, openness) on the part of an SO, we still have trouble talking about our feelings regarding who we are?

Like Lorna said, it might have to do with the fact that we--as both men and as crossdressers--have a lot to unlearn. What we've been taught about being men or women is suspect. What we've been taught about the need to express (or hide) our feelings is suspect. We face an uphill battle in this regard. We all do, SO's included.

I understand what you're trying to say, Elizabeth. It would, indeed, be better for all involved if we never had to face this kind of struggle in the first place, if the world--or society--were more welcoming of diversity from the get go. Thankfully, some people (you included) are working hard to this end. Kudos to you!

But, on a more personal level, when this diversity is accepted (even if it's merely within the scope of our own marriage or relationship), why do we continue to balk at the thought of stepping into that spotlight and sharing ourselves more fully with our beloved? This is what has me puzzled. Like some have said, this may just be another "Mars and Venus" issue, but I don't personally put much stock in that kind of talk; it tends to rub out what makes each and every one of us an individual... in the same way that talking of the non-acceptance of SO's relegates Curly, Love, Jassmine, Sharon, and any number of other women out there we never hear from on this forum, to the shadows. This might be just my own experience, but I've never met a person who was totally accepting of another person. Never. Anyway, this is beside the point. The point being, why do we--as crossdressers--tend to refrain from opening up further to our SO's? especially when she invites us to do so? It's a mystery to me. It seems, again, to me, that it's not enough to say, "this is who I am--take it or leave it." We have to also be able to let her know, "this is what it feels like to be me; what it means to me to be the person I am; how I see myself growing (or withering) in this relationship; why I have such difficulty coming to grips with who I am (this might be where the social aspect comes in); why I feel I'm a person still worth knowing, and loving, 'despite' this; and why your not running away screaming into the night has--of itself--made me feel so much better about who I am."

Some will think that we may not actually need others--especially, that we don't need an SO--in order to feel good about ourselves or to be happy. Well, that looks good on paper, but I think it doesn't wash in the realm of the heart. We human beings need each other (this, particularly, has been made plain to me, for not having been needed by anyone for such a long time). If we didn't have this need in the first place, we wouldn't be as concerned as we are with finding acceptance.

So, when you are sharing your life with a woman who, though she may be uncomfortable or disquieted about your gender dysphoria, is willing to remain even somewhat open to who you are, and she encourages you to open up also, for Pete's sake, don't keep your heart in the dark!

Again, just my thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em.

Love,
CJ

[Carolynn]

Hey CJ!!!
Hope you are well and reasonably happy.

As to why the difficulty with communications? I've had a few wandering thoughts while following this thread. Though there is some variability across cultures, I think you put your finger on part of it when you noted that there are different expectations about what it is to be a man and what it is to be a woman. The adult's expectations of boys and girls differs as they grow, and change, and that is the social/cultural element of it. Is there also a physiological aspect, something innate, to a developing child's personality that is enhanced by the cultural expectations of appropriate behavior for the expected social role? Yeah, and I think it can be tied to the hormonal levels experienced in foetal development, but it could also be genetic. I know by personal experience that there are those of us who have had to learn to recognize and mimic modes of behavior appropriate to our biologic gender because they are not processed automatically as they seem to be in real males. We are never comfortable with them, but we can mimic the behavior whether we understand the reason for it or not. That includes the reserve, and it may be compounded by keeping back a "dirty little secret" shored up by guilt and fear of not being loved. Any gender can do that!! There may be those other things that affect the ability to breach the walls formed by guilt and fear, and that takes time and no little skill in communicating.

Males not only learn their reserve by example and teaching (boys don't cry, be a man, be tough), but there could well be an instinctive need to "batten down the hatches" to conceal weakness and project strength, and thereby enhance their potential for reproductive success. Primate studies by ethologists, particularly for the more social apes, record a lot of this apparent behavior in the males. Among baboons and chimps, you see the same types of deliberate posture and actions demonstrating the dominate male attitude. (Talk about the male tendency for spreading out and taking up room!!! ) They are less expressive, more aggressive, but in a channeled way, are more prone to challenging stares toward potential competitors, and surprisingly adept at deflecting challenge and picking the time of their battles to best enhance the social effects of their physical besting of an opponent. Their reserve seems to be an indicator of strength, and a signal to females of reproductive fitness, even if he is what we might call a despot. We are primates, though some would like to think we are other than animals and divorce us from our biology, but can primate male behavior not be present among human males too? If so, does that mean that lack of communication is in at least part a genetic program or at least have a biological cause?

Last, but not least, think about gays in our own society as examples, and I will depend on some acquaintances for an example. The sterotype includes the expectation of greater emotional expression, indications of submissivity, voluability, and a greater range of physical expression in communication than from the stereotypical line backer, in short fem behavior. But the stereotype doesn't need to follow true. Two gentlemen of my acquaintance have been a couple for more than 15 years now. There is 18 mos. difference in their ages, and I will call the elder Mike the younger Pat, for communications sake. Mike is 6'4", and was a successful highschool football player, capable and respected in the world of mathematics, and currently teaches higher math at a college level. Mike would never be taken for the stereotypical gay guy. He looks like every girls dream, and is pretty out going for a guy and likeable, but he does seem like a man's man (yeah, ok he is, but I meant that in a different sense ). Pat is a touch over 6 ft, did well in track, but refused football, and both keep themselves in excellent physical condition, possibly as a way of maintaining their mutual attractiveness. Pat owns and operates an antique and gift shop. Pat has soft, compassionate dark eyes, talks a lot with an expressive repertoire of gestures and facial animation that is totally fem, is and has always been able to freely express emotions and inner thoughts, and has not been mistaken as anything but gay since at least the age of 10, which is when I first met he and his parents. My sis and her girlfriends and his other female customers consider Pat one of the girls. Where was I going with this? My sis mentioned to me during a conversation after her visit to Pat's store, that he was quite put out at Mike because he just couldn't open up when something was bothering him, a common complaint of my little sis about her DH. Sound familiar? Gender rules?

I suspect talking things out would have to be a learned skill for most adult males after achieving adulthood, so maybe better excercises in communication would be useful to develop the communication we feel would be useful.

Wow, I was over the mountain and through the woods, and swimming the lake to get here, wasn't I? Suppose I need more excercise in communications?

[Jassmine(SO)]

Howdy Elizabeth

Great post!!

Now I pose a question to the SOs out there.....How would you feel if your husband started telling you that you had to wear a dress all the time? Or that he would not be seen in public with you if you are wearing jeans? How about him insisting on how you wear your hair? You want it short, he insists that it be long. Or him telling you that you had wear make-up and nail polish? Does this sound like he is very respectful of your feelings and wishes?

Just some food for thought

*Hugs & Love*

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

First let me say

CJ, that was an outstanding post.

Secondly let me say

Caroline, that was an outstanding post.

And lastly let me say

Jassmine, that is exactly what I wanted to say, but didn't think of it that way.
Outstanding.

You girls are great, that is all I can say.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

Geez, I'll be late for work, but I just have to say "Wow!" This is awesome. People talking with, not past, each other.

Carolynn, that was a very insightful post. You put into words a lot of things many of us also think, I believe. That, to a large extent, our behaviours are hardwired is a given. We're not plants and we're not mountains; we're the human animal. What I often wonder is whether or not our "animality" dooms us to be the slaves of our own instincts or physiology. Personally, I don't think so (of course, I might be deluding myself). We are a species (possibly not the only one) endowed with the ability (for good or ill) to reflect and to reason and to be self-aware. That should count for something when we try to find ways of getting along with each other. It often doesn't because what's in our brains (our minds, our thoughts) is just so damned hard to explain to others, even though they have a brain pretty much like our own. This, I think, is where communication--healthy communication--is crucial. Communication skills should be taught alongside algebra. And I don't mean just the exchange of thoughts, but of feelings also.

Again, great thread... great responses. Thanks to all!

Love,
CJ

[Love (SO)]

Hi Everyone,

BTW, Great thread CJ

I must agree. For me, over the years, trying to get my husband to open himself up to me has been like pulling teeth. I haven't given up trying.....however, lately I've been doing some rethinking on how our relationship is going......

Since I am not the same as my husband , and I tell him how I am feeling whether he wants to know or not. I have been that way since the day he met me and I'm not about to change now. I really feel that he would "feel" much happier if I was to be the same as he is........to not talk about or share my "feelings" with him. I really think he would "feel" much better if I were to just be unfeeling, to not share anything other than to look at him with adoring and to always be .......for me to just be his "Edith Bunker"

I feel many emotions (as most people do) sometimes I'm......
happy
sad
scared
elated
confused
silly
grief
and yes, sometimes even angry

I can't just always be elated and happy.


I can't just be his little zombie (although I feel he would prefer me to be)

I wouldn't want to live that way.... ..it's not me!

[DonnaT]

Don't give up!!

A lot of males can't express their feeling, that's the way we grew up. Whereas most females grow up sharing there feelings with their friends and parents.

So it's harder for him. Maybe if you sat him down to have a woman to woman chat while he was dressed, he might open up more? After all, at one point you said:

My husband is now more understanding, compasionate, caring, conciderate, & loving. I feel that he now actually listens to what I have to say, instead of him just gazing at the T.V. and nodding his head as I talk

Sorry if it appears I've been snooping, but reading the SO part of the forum has helped me understand what my wife is going through, as she doesn't really open up to me and talk about my CDing.

Anyway, get a pair of plyers out and set them on the table, and tell him your going to pull some teeth to get him to open up.

I've had my wife quit talking to me, and don't like it at all.

[Love (SO)]

Hello Donna,

Sorry if it appears I've been snooping, but reading the SO part of the forum has helped me understand what my wife is going through,

No need at all to be sorry, I feel that's what the forum is here for

I have longed many years for my husband to open himself up, and this is probably one of the the main reasons I have stayed with him. My husband is now more understanding, compassionate, caring, considerate, & loving. I feel that he now actually listens to what I have to say, instead of him just gazing at the T.V. and nodding his head as I talk. .

Yes, I did say this, and I still feel the same way......... however, while he may be listening to what I have to say now, I don't feel that he really wants to hear what I have to say.
My husband doesn't open up very often (I am usually the one to initiate us sharing how we are feeling from time to time)
The times that he is "understanding, compassionate, caring, considerate, & loving" seems to only be when I'm already happy and on cloud 9 sometimes I also need him to be that way when I'm not so happy, when I am a bit sad, and even when I'm scared too. I just have never really felt that I could "lean" on him when I needed to.


What I meant in my previous post is.........
I don't feel that he really wants to have us both sharing how we are feeling........(either of us) He has even said to me that he wants me to be happy everyday (doesn't everybody want to be) but, such is life and I can't always be happy, and he can't always "fix everything" and make it go away, all I ask is that he be there beside me and lend a shoulder sometimes and share our feelings about what is going on with each other (just as I have done with him when he needed me to be). I can't just go through life without feeling emotions, and as he is my husband, I would think that I could share how I feel with him and he with me.

Donna wrote: "I've had my wife quit talking to me, and don't like it at all".
Well, I don't "quit" talking, but I am thinking of not sharing how I am feeling anymore (at least with him) .........sharing my deepest emotions with him. I feel that I share all my deepest emotions, how I feel in my soul, but I don't get the same in return, so why do I, why do I bare my soul to someone who doesn't feel they can bare their soul to me?