Look at mens magazines, they do not have tons of pictures of men (apart from magazines aimed at the gay market)). Why is this? I have often wondered about this.
Men see nothing sexy or appealing in another man, so there is no need to put more pics of men in the magazines. Men are more into material things and how they look, with the exception of pretty women that is.
As a CD, not only do I get to enjoy the look of, say a nice car and pretty women, but also the pretty clothes that women get to enjoy.
Hello all,
Curly(SO) said:
"I want to portray myself as a glamorous, self-assured woman who has her life together. . ."
Well, I don't need make up to make me feel that I am a self-assured woman who has her life together, I AM that, regardless of whether I'm wearing make up or not. I don't have any use for glamor except on very rare, special occasions.
For my daily life, I wear mascara, and that is only because my lashes are blond and I look like I'm sick if I don't color them. Sometimes lipstick if I have time on my hands in the morning.
I do take issue at someone saying that the reason women don't wear full face make up is that we think our faces are a lost cause anyway. That indicates a very low opinion of women in general, in my opinion.
Love is a verb. It's a doing thing. No action, no love! - Terri
A great discussion!
We have one man at work, who has a family and smells terrible all the time. This has gone on for years and years. Even though people generally like him and he works good, he is constantly the butt of jokes. People have learned to work with him up wind. Why does he stink of a week's worth of sweat everyday. Wouldn't a wife, a family member or a doctor ask him about his hygene. Is he stupid? Could it be his mask?
Men in the plant have talked constantly about office woman and shop women. Some men talk of the prettiest and best dressers which are usually the sexiest. They talk of all sorts of sexual innuendo. Some say why do they dress like that at work, they must be sexually unsatisfied and trolling for men. Some say these women are Jezabels. I enjoy having pretty women around as it helps perk up my days.
Some women don't do make-up or skirts and dresses or such. It doesn't bother me. They are just as much my friends. A few hate having to work with woman in the shop and constantly complain to others that they don't belong in our shop. The majority work with them as co-workers like me. Some don't like them at all because they are doing man's work at man's pay. Some don't like them because they don't fulfill the general feminine
requirements that most of us have been raised to believe. The stereotypical female.
I kind of think that make-up for the majority of women and cross-dressers is not a mask at all. It goes to what rapists often say, that if she
wasn't pretty or dressed so whorish, I would not have raped her. She was asking for it. I have heard men talk quite seriously like this even though they are not rapist. Child molesters often say the same. The child wanted it, was too sexy or what ever. This is truely perverted behavior.
If Jon Benet had lived, I would have supposed make-up would have played a huge role in her self esteem as a woman. If the make-up became her mask. I would ask who created that mask??
Of course, some woman will use make-up as a mask to hide themselves. Some would know it was a problem and some would refuse to believe it was a problem. Many of us have built in thoughts from nature or nurture.
We all have a lot of preconceived ideas. Freeing ourselves of our programing to view things a new is all most impossible. We will always to some degree lean toward those ideas that have formed along our experiences, whether they be true or false conclusions.
For me I don't think it is a mask. I feel make-up for what ever reasons gives me the ability to see the person I believe myself to be inside.
I believe that is true of the majority of all of us, male, female or what ever mix we feel ourselves be. I don't do it to be attractive to men or women. I do it for myself. I think that could have been what Elizabeth was saying also.
Reading what I wrote got me to think that unattractive woman could be treated similar to we cders??
Hi all. I think I would agree that makeup is more situational for most GGs, and on the the other hand, I would submit that masks are worn all the time. You may have a parental mask, a professional mask, a mask for event trusted coworkers, and for the clerk at a store, or a "good ol' boy" in the field. But the truth is, these masks do not require makeup and are worn by men as well as by women. Even children learn to put them on at an early age. Usually they are for self defense, sometimes to project authority or reassurance. And, sometimes they can be helped by the application of a little slappy or by taking extra pains with our appearance, no matter the mode. In a professional capacity to appear before a panel or in court, my collegues and I will make special efforts to appear business like, close shave, clean fingernails, well pressed suit, groomed hair, and the like, and those collegues that are female take similar measures in way of using understated cosmetics appropriate to the situation, and designed to reflect their professionalism, along of course with appropriate clothing. One even admitted nervously before a hearing on a budget, that she had even shaved her legs even though she was planning (and did) to wear a well fitting pants suit with ankle boots!!! It just made her feel more "ready" to face the committee. (Turned out to be a cake walk, but we were all ready!!!!).
So, I guess I am just saying, one does not need special efforts to look good to be wearing a mask, but sometimes it CAN help confidence no matter the gender presented. I dunno, I kinda wandered.
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born
With make up being some thing some one thought up, I wonder where it would leave the cross-dresser (that needs to pass) if women stopped wearing make up?
One woman said that with out make up she looks like a man. Would it then make it any easier for us?
Sorry Darlene, I didn't mean to imply I look like a man without makeup on, I just see my Dad's pale lips, when I look in a mirror without lippie on!
I would not want you all to think I look like a man!
Having said that, there are plenty of women I see, that do have a very adrogynous look, with no hint of femininity about them. Women have pushed the boundaries and made it acceptable for themselves to dress this way, and I think men are now doing the same. I see crossdressers out, they rarely get more than a second glance. I've noticed plenty of men wearing nail polish, plucked eyebrows etc, I do think CDing is becoming more acceptable and part of the mainstream, where I live.
Recently there was a 16 year old school student on a local news report on T.V, made to sit an exam in isolation as he had worn a skirt to school. Many of his school friends backed him, signing a petition pleading with the the school to allow him the right to wear a skirt. I don't think that would have happened 20 years ago when I left school, he would not have got through the school gates without getting beat up!
The makeup and self-esteem issue, well that is a whole topic unto itself! While perusing for interview tips a little while ago, I read that women who wear makeup were more likely to get offered a job or promotion over one that wasn't. My comment about feeling more confident and self-assured while wearing makeup is all tied in here somewhere...other peoples perception of me. There is an opinion that women who do not wear makeup have somehow 'let themselves go' or 'not made an effort'.
I would not want anyone to think that of me, so that is one reason why I wear makeup. I get the feeling (social conditioning) that if I don't look like a stereotype woman I won't get treated with the same respect. Does that tie in with what Kersten said? If a man is not looking like a stereotype man (i.e cross-dressed) he does not get treated with the same respect.
Kersten Lee wrote
Reading what I wrote got me to think that unattractive woman could be treated similar to we cders??
Things ARE changing, but these gender stereotypes are not going to go away easily. My mind is deeply entrenched in how a woman 'should' look. I don't judge other people but I certainly judge myself and measure myself up to stereotypes. Sometimes I think it would be quite liberating to jump in the shower, pull my hair back and go straight out the door with just a glow of moisturiser on my face, doing the makeup thing every day is a bore, but I just cannot bring myself to do that!
Wow this turned into a serious (but fun) topic really quickly. Great thread Ms. Darlene.
Ok. So here's my input. I wear makeup at home, but just to even out my skin tone and to apply just a hint of makeup. I don't wear false eyelashes at home or red lipstick. I usually use a purple'ish, brown'ish, red'ish colored lipstick. If I were to walk out of the house no one would really even pay attention to my lips or my eyes because I don't wear a lot of makeup.
When I had facial hair I had to put on far more makeup and therefore it was nearly impossible to look like I was wearing light makeup. So I can understand what Curly is saying about looking at herself and seeing her father, it's in jest. BTW, I've seen Curly's picture before she replaced her profile picture and there's no way on God's earth she would look like a man EVER, so I appreciated her humor.
I decided to post here is before I had the LHR I would have looked at this differently. Now that there is no hair growing on my face, it takes less than 5 minutes for me to apply light foundation, a little eyeshadow (hardly visible), and lipstick. So if I were a gal I'd do this before I went out because it's not really a task. When you put on light makeup you do not represent a glamour doll. Applying just a little bit totally changes your appearance to make it just a little bit softer and femme. To me it's like wearing the right blouse or skirt. I don't see it as a mask really.
Vanessa Williams looks really different without makeup, but you can still see she's pretty. With just a light application of foundation, eyeshadow, and lipstick she looks softer and more femme.
Lastly, the women who gob on makeup to make them look sexier can't be compared to the beautiful women I work with who wear light makeup. The women who wear makeup that draws attention to their face, look sexier rather than more professional, or wear provacative clothing that you'd see in a club or Happy Hour are seeking attention for whatever reason. I believe a lot of guys think these women are mostly trying to get ahead, but I believe just as many are insecure, crave attention, and are looking for a mate. Those are the women who I think may be wearing a mask, but not the women, like Curly who can just apply basic light makeup and go out to the store feeling their face matches the cute outfit their wearing. The outfits can be a women's jogging suit or a long skirt, flats and a blouse.
Putting on your face in the morning is just a lot different than getting dressed to be even somewhat sexy.
Hello All,
Here is what I think is what is rankling me about this thread...
that there is a shared opinion that no makeup = unattractive.
Am I missing the point? I understand that for some people, women and men, that make-up makes them feel better about themselves, fine. But that does not mean we all need it, not to feel good nor to look good.
Someone sent me an email in which several women were transformed (from anywhere from plain to downright ugly) into these glamorous supermodel looks. I admit it was almost shoking the difference and yes, I admit I would rather look like the later than the former. However, the jist of the email (that was circulating among men friends) was that it was a form of false advertising (like a stuffed bra).
Make up (unless you're on stage) should only be used to enhance what you have, not make you something you are not.
Curly, I suspect you would be received just fine if you went out fresh-faced and glowing from the moisturizer (make sure its got sun screen in it!).
Love is a verb. It's a doing thing. No action, no love! - Terri
You are right about light makeup making a lot of difference. I don't think anyone would really notice my daytime makeup either, as it is very light and natural colours. I don't always wear foundation, just a light powder or tinted moisturizer, it IS mainly the eyes and lips that feel naked without makeup on! To me, it is about looking polished and softer. Subtle but it makes all the difference. (BTW, I go for purplish brownish lipstick too, never red!).
No makeup does not mean unattractive. Unfortunately, the popular media is forcing the idea that it does, down our throats, Magazines and all the popular makeover programmes at the moment are perpetuating the myth that if only we had the right clothes, a professional makeover etc etc how our lives would be transformed. To be successful you have to be thin blah de blah de blah.
This, I admit does have some influence over me, although I know it shouldn't. I hear the phrases that I mentioned earlier, 'let herself go' which is a frightful one, but something I never want heard said about me
Hey, I'm off to work soon, I'm going bare faced, just a touch of coloured lipgloss, I will let you know how I feel at the end of the day!
Well, I don't need make up to make me feel that I am a self-assured woman who has her life together, I AM that, regardless of whether I'm wearing make up or not. I don't have any use for glamor except on very rare, special occasions.
As to other "masks" I try very hard not to wear any. I like who I am and I want to "project" the real me
*Hugs & Love*
Blessings Eternal, Jassmine
"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
I hope my post above yours doesn't read like I'm saying putting on light foundation to cover up blemishes might mean a person doesn't feel good about themselves. I meant for my post to be more in line with what you said about enhancing what you have and not making you something you are not. Gals who are putting on a sexy face do not spend less than 5 minutes on their look.
As far as not putting on any makeup. I guess the extreme thought for me is like. Why comb your hair? If you feel great about yourself then why comb it? Some women do do this. They put on a baseball cap, no makeup and do what they need to do, but the majority of the time they put on some kind of foundation and light makeup and do that. It's also because it's kind of presenting yourself. If we didn't care about that. Why not wear wrinkled clothes if they are clean. I put this in line with just doing the minimum to go out for an errand or when you wake up and just feel a little bit better by putting on your face.
My wife usually takes a shower and puts on light makeup before she goes out. It's because, for whatever reason, it makes her feel better about herself. It's a 10% bonus not like a metamorphosis though. I don't think she or Curly have a fear of going out without make up on because they won't be accepted. They just put it on because it's who they are and it makes them feel better about their presence.
I really am not attracted to gals who wear too much makeup. If my wife wears a lot my attraction tends to go down. I think too much means you want attention from more than me if we're going out. So I don't really dig that too much.
The photo your male friends circulated is typical male stuff and I feel equally rankled. That e-mail and the topic that's evolving here seem different to me, but I'm far from the smartest in the bunch so I could be wrong.
Maria, thanks for your input it has been super revealing about how simple things aren't really so simple.
Beauty
Okay, a reality check, people: an unattractive woman is no less of a woman for it; an unattractive man is no less of a man for it; and both are persons, regardless of whether or not we're inclined to give them a second glance and whether or not they enhance their looks (gender-appropriately or not).
Curly,
I remember when your avatar was a photo of you; you most certainly do not look like a man (no offence to your father). And you don't need me or anyone else to tell you this... a glance in the mirror should suffice.
It seems to me there's an undercurrent, here, that wants to associate cosmetic enhancement with dissatisfaction and disenchantment with one's own appearance. While that may be true, to some extent (as some women are more "sensitive," in a way, to cultural standards of beauty--standards often defined by men, I should add), it's not always the case. How we choose to present ourselves (I guess I'll exclude men, crossdressers, from the following--we're a special case, even though, as Merinda pointed out [and no one picked up on], beards and facial hair are a version of masculine makeup, in a way) presentation of self, I say, is a highly personal affair. Some women choose to "espouse" those images vehiculated in the pop culture media and in "women's interest" magazines and books; some don't. Some feel a need to look like what they think a woman "should look like"; some don't. Some enhance their looks, through the use of makeup, for others; some do it for themselves. Women, like men, come in all shapes, sizes, complexions, varieties, and configurations (so to speak). That one woman would choose to highlight this or that feature about herself while another woman doesn't (or won't) takes nothing away from the inherent "deep beauty" of either. Countess Bathory may have been a very beautiful woman but, to me, her propensity to bathe in the blood of sacrificed virgins in order to improve her complexion makes her the ugliest woman to have ever walked the Earth.
In a way, there's a parallel to be made between the relationship between sex and gender and the relationship between natural looks and cosmetically enhanced looks. Sex is to gender what natural looks are to made up prettiness; the one is the way we're born and the other is the way we perceive ourselves to be. This is a truism: the way we perceive ourselves to be has almost everything to do with how others perceive us, regardless of what we were born with. We do what we must when we live in a society where a high regard for appearance takes on cultish overtones (and this psychological fact is exactly what the beauty industry is banking on, by the way).
Darlene,
Crossdressers try to imitate women. If women wear makeup, crossdressers will, too; if women never do, crossdressers wouldn't, either. If women wore only pants and shirts, crossdressers would wear those also. If women always had a third breast surgically implanted between their own two, crossdressers would stuff their three-cupped bra as well, without batting an eyelash. You ask, "where would 'needing-to-pass' crossdressers be left, if women stopped wearing makeup?" There's a disquieting supposition, here, that wearing makeup is part of what it means to be a woman. It isn't--regardless of whether or not women actually wear makeup.
The Chevalier d'Éon de Beaumont, the famous French diplomat who worked for King Louis XIV (where we get the term "Eonism," a synonym of "Transvestism"), crossdressed 24/7 for most of his life. In an age when both men and women wore makeup, wigs, and frilly, dainty, and delicate clothes, where did that leave him, as a crossdresser who needed to pass? Well, the one thing that distinguished men from women back then was that women wore extremely elaborate dresses--hooped underskirts, layers and layers of frothy silk, intricate bows plenty, corseted (and breast-crushing) bodices--while men didn't. So, he did what women did and wore these skirts (as well as the lofty hairdos the women of his time wore).
Again, crossdressers do what they do to imitate women, regardless of the way in which they must do so. If women present themselves, fundamentally and always, in a certain way, a crossdresser will imitate that. Makeup is elective in our own age. When a crossdresser wears makeup, he's not imitating women generally; he's imitating some women, not all. So. The only answer I can think of (though it might not be a palatable one because it would include the higher likelihood of a man not being able to pass as a woman) is that, should women never wear makeup, a crossdressed man will go out into the world without any makeup on. Then, we might all look like J. Edgar Hoover in heels. Oh well. I'm pretty sure that, for those of us who are stronger, wearing Merinda and Elizabeth's "stupidly-looking hat" would take away nothing of the peace and contentment we'd find inside ourselves by being who we are and not caring what the world thinks.
Love,
CJ
Last edited by CJ on Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I dunno, I kinda wandered.
Great thread Ms. Darlene. 
