Please help me understand?

[Terri(SO)]

Hey, Jill,
glad your back. I like to go to afternoon movie matinees. It is not crowded, you can park as close or far away from the theater as you want, you don't have to stand in line, there is very little contact with others and in some cases its like having your own screening room. I have had some interesting situations arise however, like one of my first outings was to see "Cold Mountain" There were maybe six or seven people in the threater when in walks four GG's. Guess where they choose to sit? Yes, in my row and one sit right next to me! Two plus hours of making sure every move I made was feminine and still try and enjoy the movie. Guess I pulled it off as she just smiled at me as we were putting on our coats to leave. And my biggest achievement, as I was leaving "The Last Samari." Some "older" GG was sitting in an aisle seat and as I walked by she looked me up and down and then said "Slut!" Made my day, I had on a red silk blouse and a knee length slightly tight gray skirt and three inch heels,- very conserative I thought! It was wonderful!!!!
Virginia

Why, Why, WHY, do you think "slut" is a complement?!?
NO real woman would take that as a complement! Not one you would actually want to spend time with, anyway.
THIS is one of the reasons why so many women get hurt and confused and sometimes disgusted by men crossdressing. Because this is the message from so many of you of what it seems you think being a woman is.

[Love (SO)]

[DonnaT]

I believe you ladies have interacted with us CD's here for long enough to know that we, at least most of us, do not dress slutty, and do not think that slutty dress on a woman is what we aim to emulate.

It was only a compliment in that it indicated that Virginia passed. A CD in public needs to be discrete in responding to such a derogitory remark. It's all "Sticks and Stones. . ."

[Beauty]

Hmmm.. Here I am making light of an issue twice.

What I mean is last time I said about something, "I'm sure she didn't mean." and then I'm kind of doing it again with Virginia.

I don't think what was being said was meant to upset women, but my I read it to my wife and she got pretty p'd too.

I'd like us to try to exercise caution when saying things that wouldn't be very lady like. We should go out of our way not to offend the women here. This forum becomes just another CD forum without our SOs.

So I think we learned a lesson today from two gals who accept CD'rs in their lives (3 if you include my wife). Being called a slut and being ok with it in any capacity is not ok.

I'm with the SOs on this one. It would be nice to see us set ourselves apart from those who don't refer to themselves in the nicest and most flattering ladylike manner.

Thanks Maria. I support you on this one.

Beauty

[Loretta Ann]

Well this certainly an interesting thread.

First off what you Girls are responding to in my opinion stems from a warped view that many CDer's seem to have of what it is like to be a woman. And I commend you Ladies here for challenging this. There needs to be more of this kind of thing happen among the CD community.

Having said that I have never pictured Virginal as being one of those who needs to learn this lesson. And I do not think that she was happy that a woman had called her a Slut. If you will note she describes how she was dressed. and it dose not sound like a slut to me.

As for the woman who called her that, it is just one more instance of someone not being happy with who they are, and need to attempt to get others to live as they prescribe.

As for how some woman do and will continue to dress like a slut, that has nothing to do with how I view those that don't.

What determines the kind of women that are attractive to me depends upon what is between my ears, not upon how people choose to act.

And for many of us maturity comes with age. There was a time in my life where women who dressed as sluts were indeed attractive to me. "I also know some women who used to dress like that, but would not be caught dead like that today.

[Laura Ashcroft]

I will say I have to agree with DonnaT. It was a compliment, in that she passed as a woman, and not only passed but looked sexy enough to be called a slut. A slut is not a good thing, but why do you think hookers dress the way they do? They do it because men like looking at that. It turns their heads and attracts them(maybe only in a physical sense). So, while its not good to really be a slut, or dress slutty, to a CD'er out in public being called a slut IS a compliment. To a GG, being called a slut would not be a compliment, since you are not trying to "pass". From the description of what she was wearing, it did not sound slutty to me, but more dressed up than most women would attend a movie wearing. I think the woman who called her a slut was jealous that Virginia looked better than she did, and lashed out. Well, that's my 2 cents.

--Laura

[Elizabeth]

HI girls,

I took it completely differently. I assumed Virginia was happy, not because she was called a slut, but because she passed. Enough so that a GG thought she was dressed slutty for a theatre.

I know when I am out dressed, which is quite frequently, I just love when someone calls me "mam" or 'sweetie" or "hon". Anything that means I am not expected to act in my male gender role. Any reccognition that I am not male. Notice I did not say, "not a man", because I am certainly not passable in the least and really make no attempt. My dressing is for me.

I know that MariasGirl's views are shared by many GG's and I do understand that. I know I don't want to be thought of as a slut and I have always resented the notion that any girl who dresses attractively must be soliciting sex. But I would rather be called a slut by a GG who thought I was female, than to be asked "are you a man?" And that is the spirit in which I took Virginia's post.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

I wish I had something to say. Something intelligent. I don't. As it is, I can only hope there'll come a day when men will SEE more than "sluts" in women and women more than "brutish gorillas" in men. "Looking like" this or that or the other thing is one thing, but taking pleasure in being demeaned is another; it's not anything I've ever known any woman to do.

Darlene,

I understand where you're coming from, about the woman who made the comment to Virginia. She's too insecure to understand that how others choose to dress is no reflection on her, right? Well, I'm hard-pressed to see how it's possible to think that we're so divorced from the world at large that our behaviour is of no consequence to anyone else. It is. It matters. Rikki of L.A. used to point this out often. When we're out there, in the world (whether as men, as women, or as transgendered folks), like it or not, every step we take we take for the benefit of both ourselves as well as of those who are part of whatever "group" we belong to. How I act as a man (or as a crossdresser) in a social context cannot help but affect the views others hold about men (or crossdressers) in general. I know you think those views matter not a whit to you, that your own happiness will never depend on them. Alas! if only your own happiness were the only one that mattered in this big, wide world. It isn't, though. And the context is this: not that Virginia was dressed like a "slut" (maybe she wasn't--that may be a matter of differing opinions) but that she took pleasure in being called such. Love (SO) took pains to highlight the fact that she doesn't think all crossdressers would find pleasure in being called a slut, but Love's exceptional, in that she knows much about CD'ers and CD'ing already; she's discerning. But to women less "experienced" and fairly new to the world of the crossdresser, it sends a horrible message. Period.

So, thinking that a woman's opinion on the matter of women's appearance is the result of her "being unhappy with who she is" then becomes merely a way of setting up a straw man. MG's question was: why would we think being called (rightfully or not) a "slut" is a compliment? Such a pejorative term can hardly be taken in a positive way. I'm sorry, but anyone who does, really doesn't know women all that well (of course, the hidden assumption, here, being that we actually want to know women better... who knows? maybe we don't want to).

Peace,
CJ

[Beauty]

Hi Laura,

Thanks for staying very civil in your response.

I believe the problem isn't in understanding why Virginia was happy. The GG's understand that. They also feel that taking as a compliment or making a day isn't respectful to them. Since we are dressing as women I think it's easy to understand what they are saying and to take their feelings in to consideration when posting.

I don't think Virginia likes being called slut and CD'rs can see that it was just a kind of "yes, she didn't call me freak"

If we are out in public and people think we are feminine then we kind of have a responsibility to the women we emulate to make sure we behave in a manner that doesn't make it harder for them.

Street walkers are in the streets and women don't appreciate them coming into the mainstream. I believe that's the reason why the woman in Virginia's real life story reacted so negatively. That's totally a guess, but regardless she did think, "I can't believe a woman dressed like that." The truth is, it wasn't a woman it was a man who looked like a woman.

It's completely up to the CD'r to feel the way they feel or respond the way they feel is appropriate in the real life situation. I hope when posting on the board we pay attention to how it affects the GGs here. Especially since they have voiced a discomfort with hearing so many CD'rs call themselves other terms like slut and laughing it off without considering GG's, who are also members here, will take great offense to these interactions. I've heard women say more than just here today these actions come off as if we are demeaning them when we so often say we idolize or respect them more than men who aren't TG'd.

Beauty

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

Great discussion so far.

I have to say that I just can't go along with the theory that I owe anyone anything. I do not, and can not beleive that any person or person's comfort level is more important than my own.

Why should the feelings of GG's take precedence over the feelings of the CD's? Who is to say that the GG's should not be more careful not to offend us?

I find it amazing that some girl thinks herself so above others that she takes it upon herself to address another human being, no matter what gender or perceived gender, with a public insult, and the CDer is at fault for not being offended?

I am not going to live my life to the expectations of others. I have spent my entire life doing that already. I don't really care if a GG's is offended by my existance, or my fashion sense.

It is my personal beleif that what acceptance we do have in public is from those who preceded us, not caring what other thought, because if they had, they would not have gone out to begin with.

I am sorry, but I just can't go along with this notion that my life is conditional on what GG's think is going to be unoffensive. Because too many of them just don't want me around at all.

Having said all that. My personal experience so far has been one of almost 100% acceptance, particularly by GG's, who seem to not view me as a threat now. I beleive it is precisely because I don't care what they think, that allows this to happen. And a false beleif that I am most likely gay.

This does not excuse one from common courtesy that allows us to function in a society, however this also is a two way street. One must show respect to get respect. I try to conduct myself accordingly, and a big smile doesn't hurt anything either.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Virginia]

Wow! Whoa! Holy cow!!! Back to the wood shed AGAIN!!!!!! Let me clarify, now I can not remember if this was my second or third time out in public, but as I stated many months ago, I was and still am of a competitive nature and I saw dressing up as a competition as well as the self-satisfaction that I/we get from trying to pass and look pretty. I have to state categorically I was trying my damnest to pass. Now let me think, it was winter I was dressed as I previously stated, knee length slightly tight gray skirt, red, long sleeve, silk blouse, blonde and carrying my leather coat with the fur collar on my right arm. The "lady" inquestion was sitting on the aisle on the left side she had short brown hair and I vaguely remember she had on a brownish sweater and dark slacks and please no offense but she was really not very pretty and very little if any make-up. I remember looking directly into her eyes. The "crowd" leaving the theater had stopped as people were stopping and putting on their coats which caused the "back-up" in the theater aisle. She looked me up and down and then expressed her scoring of my appearance. Yes, I was probably somewhat over dressed, I looked like a professional lady who had possibly taken the afternoon off from work to go to a movie. I definitely did NOT look like a slut!!! I have thought many times about this and I think I handled it properly, what if she was "mentally challenged" or drunk or just a witch and we had had a confirmation right there, it would have not helped anyone. As some of my sisters have said, yes it made me feel good, because I did pass, I can also certainly sympathize with our SO' who have expressed their opinions as to what some GG's have to endure, but I don't think a GG would have handled it any differently, just ignore it an move on.
I don't want to be taken to the wood shed again for a while - am I starting to enjoy it?? NO way!
Love you all,
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

I know you think those views matter not a whit to you, that your own happiness will never depend on them. Alas! if only your own happiness were the only one that mattered in this big, wide world.

CJ. It appears to me that you are attempting to put words in my mouth that aren't there.

My happiness is not the only one that matters in this world, and I never said that.

What I have said and now repeat is that I would be a fool to depend upon you or anyone else for my happiness.

I like Elizabeth am not going to live my life to the expectations of others. I am sorry but I was not put on this planet to live as others prescribe. And if you disagree with that statement you had better cease being a cross-dresser immediately.

I do not understand why cross-dressers have a hard time with this? What kind of a message does the part of our society send to you that thinks you are warped because of the way you are? Is that message any less horrible?

If you think they are responsible for your happiness ? All I can say is Good luck!!!!

And if you don't. Then what is the difference?

CJ. I do have a choice and I have chosen to be responsible for my happiness.

[Terri(SO)]

I asked the original question of WHY? because I have seen this undercurrent of mysogyny here and the blatant statement, and further confirmation from a second poster, that being called a slut somehow confirms your "passing" as a woman, and that makes you feel good.

I did not condone that woman for saying it to you in the first place. She was wrong. She was not wrong because she wasn't pretty or was make-up free (do NOT get me started on THAT again). She was wrong because she was rude, and that saying things like that to another person is just plain wrong.

I did not ask why you looked like a slut, because the desription didn't sound like you were dressed inappropriately. And it wouldn't matter anyway because unless you were trying to flash someone or acting like you were soliciting, no one should even look sideways at you.

I ask why being viewed as something that society judges as bad, is what confirms your womanhood for you.

I think this is being taken very lightly here (thank you, Beauty, for accepting that this really IS serious for some of us who really do want to understand) but if you want to be close to a woman for the long term, perhaps you need to take it in a little closer to heart.

I do not count on anyone else in this world for my happiness. That's my responsibility. Your happiness is your responsibility also. However, to think you should act and speak in ways that are anti-social and hurtful to the people you claim to be emulating, and expect them to be happy with you, is counterproductive.

I, as a woman (or maybe as a human being?), have been taught my whole life that you DO take other people's comfort into account before speaking and acting. That, actually, is a big part of how I live my life. And, you know what? It enhances my own happiness to know I don't hurt other people. It makes me happy to help others feel good. Perhaps it is that aspect of women (that you have probably benefited from your whole life without ever noticing) that you might want to emulate.

[Beauty]

Hi again Terri,

You know I can't recall a time on this forum where I learned something as important as what you just typed above.

So many times we help SOs understand us or we listen to how our dressing affects them, but this is the first time that I remember actually being taught a lesson about who I am and who I emulate in way that's so focused. This was pretty deep.

You're also right about something else. I have noticed (although there are no really 100 percents in this world other than death) the women I admire the most are always at their best when they are happy because they helped another person or a group of people to be happy. That's great advice for anyone, but specially important for us.

I've been doing laundry and all I've thought about was your last post in this thread. So for whatever reason it stuck a chord. An A sharp major chord.

The rest of your post was also right on the money, but your closing paragraph just floored me. lol.. I'm still a bit dizzy.

Thanks Terri for responding again. I thought I had clarity on what you'd said before. I thank you because I didn't realize I would learn something even deeper.

Beauty

[Loretta Ann]

emulate.
1 a : to strive to equal or excel b : IMITATE; especially : to imitate by means of an emulator
2 : to equal or approach equality with.

I guess I do not aspire to equal or approach equality with a woman. As I view that as an impossibility, simply due to the fact that we do not respond to the same situations in the same way, and in fact are unable to do so.

How ever I am not attempting to take anything away from a very mature and well written post Terri.

Perhaps it is that aspect of women (that you have probably benefited from your whole life without ever noticing) that you might want to emulate.

Some of us have not had that experience. I was not raised in an environment, where that was my reality. As a result I want to emulate something else. Perhaps I am attempting to emulate what I think it should be like.

I ask why being viewed as something that society judges as bad, is what confirms your womanhood for you?

Terri, as cross-dressers we are very used to being viewed as something that society judges as bad. I suspect that for some of us something like that may not be all that difficult to understand. After all when you are already viewed like that what has one really got to loose?

If there is anything to that it is probably more of a subconscious thought, and the cross-dresser may not even be aware of it.

How ever I will say it again I don't think for one minute that Virginia fits the box that this thread attempted to place her in, and I wonder if her comfort has been appropriately taken into account before speaking.

She is a strong person and complains very little for which I admire her. But she has a lot on her plate having to deal with, and work through a divorce after many years of marriage. Does she really need this? I think she has said she doesn't.

Terri nothing personal the point you make is a very good point, and I don't intend to take anything away from it.