Please help me understand?

[Beauty]

How ever I will say it again I don't think for one minute that Virginia fits the box that this thread attempted to place her in, and I wonder if her comfort has been appropriately taken into account before speaking.

Darlene,

I think and I hope almost everyone who has posted has said this has nothing to with Virginia. I think even Virginia knew it was more about this recurring issue and not her event only. It's very nice of you to stick up for your twin.

It's more about Love's post about what she's seen and the fact that women hear this a lot in our community than about Virginia. Virginia's post merely started the debate, but it's grown far beyond her experience.

Very classy post Darlene. Thank you for making sure you did exactly what Terri is asking us to emulate. (When you went way out to explain her post was fine). You were very kind and polite. "classy"

Beauty

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

Perhaps I have missed the point of this thread. I am not sure if Terri is upset because Virginia felt good because she felt that she passed when called a slut or she is upset because Virginia posted that she felt good because she felt she passed when called a slut. It sounds like she is upset by the fact that it made Virgina feel good.

TerriSO wrote:

I ask why being viewed as something that society judges as bad, is what confirms your womanhood for you.

If Virgina did in fact pass, than the woman who made the rude comment intended it for a woman, not a crossdresser. I have been around enough woman to know how they can be. If I were with a woman who was dressed nicely and called a slut, I am not so sure she would be offended, based on the description of the person making the comment. Context is everything. I have been with my sister in similar situations when we played in a Band together, and really my sister took it as the girl being jealous of her and hence a compliment.

So either it was a woman being rude to a crossdresser, or a woman being rude to a person she thought was a woman. And there is no guarantee that all women would be offended by such a comment, as is the supposition of your original post.

So the answer to your question above is, that it is the same as it would be for certain women who would feel it was just a jealous girl making the comment.

Just as I don't purport to speak for all crossdressers, I also think it is unfair for anyone to speak for all GG's. Everyone is different. Not all people feel and react that same way. One person's insult is another person's compliment.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Beauty]

Hi Elizabeth,

I believe Terri understood why Virgina felt good. She was just pointing this out as normal behavior we seem to do without taking note of how offensive it can be to GGs. Not from Virginia's post so much as another post in the thread.

For me your answer to the question you quoted from Terri didn't gel with her question. Please let me explain why I feel that way. Terri asked why do we view something bad as good and on top of that why do we seem to let that negative confirm womanhood. In your answer I ?think? you said it could be the same as for a CD'r as it could be for a GG. So that makes me think you were saying certain women could feel like a CDr. This feeling would almost be like, "Get a life. You're jealous." and both the CD'r and the GG would walk on by(be the better person and walk away)?

I don't see how that answer applies to Terri's question. Can you please explain for me?

What I make of your answer is, any GG who is called a slut, already knows she is a woman. So she may not be insulted or even is she is the GG may instead look at the woman and think of the woman who called her a slut as someone who is jealous. You're saying a CD'r may feel the same way. For me what you said describes a situation that could happen to a GG or CD (how they processes or handle the event), but it still leaves the question Terri asked unanswered, "Why do so many of us take a view of something so bad as good and why is it that this bad thing confirms womanhood?"

See why I need the explanation?

Thanks!
Beauty

[Virginia]

Hi Terri,
Thanks for your interest in this is has further opened my eyes , if you will. In my own defense, the incident was as I said either my second or third time out and I was still and I guess always will be a bit apprehensive when I dress and go out in public, yet to have a GG refer to me in the term that she did under the situation I was in, yes it was immature and on my part to feel the way I did about it and for that I will apologize as I recognize what you are saying in that a GG who is on the receiving end of that comment could be hurt deeply by it. No doubt the comment was rude and crude and maybe she says that to other GG's for what ever reason, maybe just me as I was over dressed for an afternoon movie matinee. I guess in summary, I understand what you are saying about women having to deal with snide comments often and I perhaps did take it too lightly as I have said we CD'ers are ambassadors for our cause, but we also represent those who we are trying to immulate, i.e., GG's. I can assure you that should a similiar situation arise again, I may handle it in the same manner, or not, but I will have a different appreciation for what it means.
Thanks for all you do.
Virginia

[Elizabeth]

Beauty,

I guess what you are trying to say is that it can be hurtful to a GG to be called a slut, and that I am not fully appreciating that, because as a man, I most likely would not be offended by the suggestion that I was permiscuous. In this regard you may be correct. However, what I am saying is that I don't agree with the basic premise that all GG's would be offended by such a comment.

Example: Playing in a rock band, my sister dressed very provacatively at times, and also anyone who has ever performed, or been in the dim lights of a night club, knows you must wear more makeup than to the mall. However if you must stop by the mall on your way to perform, you could have the appearance of say, a person with a morally casual attitude. I am sure that many times people thought she was a slut. People were unaware we were brother and sister, so many times people assumed we were a couple. And I dressed in a provacative way also. Many times there were comments and snickers, and finger pointing when we were dressed to perform, but had not yet arrived at the place we would be performing. So in this context she would laugh when girls made rude comments to her, and being called a slut was not even close to the most serious things she was called, and me too.

So, I am not saying that crossdressers are like GG's. I am saying that what is an insult has more to do with context than gender. I believe if my sister had been in the theatre instead of Virginia, she would not have been offended, and would have looked at it as a affirmation of her own appearance that another woman took the time to notice how she was dressed, and comment. Although knowing my sister like I do, she would have made the affirmation apparent to the person making the comment.

The bottom line for me is, I beleive my sister would have walked away feeling that she must be looking pretty good to solicit such a comment. Perhaps because my sister was not permiscuous she felt no insecurity about this type of insult. Which is why I beleive that not all GG's are offended by such comments, and could be one explaination of why Virginia was able to feel good about it.

I hope that cleared up what I was trying to say, and I hope I did not repeat myself too much.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Beauty]

Hi Elizabeth,

Sorry you posted all of that when there was a misunderstanding. What I mean is, I honestly wasn't trying to say to you it can be hurtful for a GG to be called a slut (I thought you got that from Terri's post). I also apologize because I did not mean to infer you can't fully appreciated the hurt because you're a man (I don't think this is true). Lastly, I didn't meant to say to you that you would not be offended by the suggestion that you were promiscuous (Until you said it may be true you wouldn't be offended I'd never thought of this).

I was just asking you to explain what you meant by your answer. I promise that's all I was asking. The post prior to your last one didn't answer Terri's question the way I read it. So I was asking you to clarify your answer to the question because I didn't understand how it answered her question about why do we feel so positive about something negative and then turn that negative into a reinforcement for womanhood.

In my last post I understood you were saying some gals my not be offended. Sorry that didn't come across as well as I wanted it to. In your answer you described a scenario similar to the analogy you gave in your last post. I understood how you were saying, "Hey a woman may not be offended too." It just didn't answer why we as CD'rs take something that's negative and make it positive and then use that negative to say we feel more like a woman. In your post you said, "... to answer your question Terri ..." and then gave your analogy of how a woman might not be offended, but the answer didn't seem to address any part of her question.

I hope this clears up what my question was from the previous post. It's ok that you used another analogy even if it reinforced what you said last time in the post prior. I hope I'm clearer about what I'm asking you to clarify about your answer to her question.

Beauty

[Terri(SO)]

Thank you, Beauty, for keeping the focus of this discussion.

Of course I understand there are women who would take these comments lightly and some would even take them as a complement (sorry, not me), depending on the circumstances and the person. I have been called names like this by women and had men make disparaging remarks, and the best I could do is keep moving and try to carry myself with dignity. And NO, it really doesn't matter what you wear, these comments get made regardless.

Virginia, I'm sorry if you feel picked on here. I didn't mean that. Really, it was just what set me off, your comment and someone responding to you. I am very happy for you that you passed well. I'm sure that is a really good feeling.

It is the undercurrent of what really feels (to some of us GGs) like mysogyny that gurgles to the surface in discussions like yours. For some, it may be totally unconscious but real, for some it may be right there on the surface of his every thought and action. For some, as you say, its always been taken lightly and its time to start thinking about it more seriously.

Thank you all for taking this discussion seriously.

[Terri(SO)]

Oh, and yes... there are many, many, many more who have not a single mysogynistic bone in their bodies!

[CJ]

Hi all,

Elizabeth,

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, but what does it mean when you say that your sister would walk away from such an encounter thinking "she must be looking pretty good to solicit such a comment"? Okay, so there's gender and context and all that. But how is "looking good" a warrant for being called a slut? I don't get it. Keep in mind, Terri's original question had nothing to do with not being upset over being called a slut; it had to do with enjoying being called a slut, a joy derived by the acknowledgment of our "womanhood."

Virginia,

Like Terri and Beauty and others, I don't necessarily want to put you in the spotlight. And Darlene was right to remind me of how little you fit the mold of a man who holds a dim view of women. From all I've read of your posts here, I know you're not. And I'm sorry. I came on too strong. Still, your little story opened up a very interesting avenue to explore. Attitudes toward the meaning of womanhood is often a bone contention between CD's and GG's (whether or not they're SO's). I know it's a touchy subject. Suuzin, a GG, once tried to bring it up, but was shouted down by many. Let's hope this won't happen here. All voices matter and are equally important. I'll admit, though, that I especially want to hear from GG's on this one because they're usually on the receiving end of our attitudes as men (or as crossdressers, in the case of SO's).

Love,
CJ

[Elizabeth]

Beauty and Terri,

Terri(SO) wrote:

Why, Why, WHY, do you think "slut" is a complement?!?
NO real woman would take that as a complement! Not one you would actually want to spend time with, anyway.

I answered by saying that I thought the original premise was incorrect, that no "real" woman would take this as a compliment. Implying that only a CDer would take it as a compliment. I feel that even qualified as "not one you would actually want to spend time with" is strictly a matter of personal taste and preference. I believe there are plenty of "real" women who would not be offended if an unattractive woman made a disparaging remark about how they were dressed. So, I beleive that Terri is stating her opinion of how this remark should be taken, not a fact. If the premise is false? Than the question can not be answered in terms of how it could be turned into a positive, because it would already be a positive.

I personally do not see this undercurrent of mysogyny here. I view crossdressing as the worship of women, definitely not the hatred of women. And not surprising, because we are not women, we will invariably offend women with our behavior. Again, we offend women with our behavior all the time anyway, as well as men.

The reason you did not see my answer to the question, is because I don't think that anyone turns a negative comment into something positive. I believe that they simply don't view the negative comment as something negative to begin with.

If I am driving my Mustang down the street, and while stopped at a signal someone pulls up in a piece of crap old beat up car and asks me why I drive a peice of junk Ford, I am not going to be offended. However, if a person pulls up next to me a Ferrari and makes the same comment, it has a totally differnent meaning. Which is why I mentioned that context is everything.

So if I were to answer Terri's question, I would say that no one turns a negative comment into something to define thier womanhood.

I hope this clears up my opinion on this matter.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Terri(SO)]

Yes, Elizabeth, sadly, you have missed the point.

You are correct in that I did make a mistake in stating NO woman would take being called a slut a complement. I should have said I and all the women I interact with on a daily basis would never take it as a complement. Some, like your sister, may return the insult in kind by thinking that it comes from jealousy but that isn't the same as taking it as a complement. That is a defense mechanism, like the old "sticks and stones" line that we teach our children.

Words carry great power in our lives which can deeply affect us whether consciously or subconsciously. Have you ever heard the words "I love you"? How did they make you feel? The words those cruel children used against you when you were a child hurt you deeply (even though outwardly you held fast to the "sticks and stones" mantra) and now you have a wall around you which takes the form of the attitude of "I don't need to consider anybody else".

Please, take a lesson from those women you feel have accepted you when you are dressed as a woman. They are very likely simply exhibiting the womanly quality I spoke of above. They are taking your feelings into consideration when they go about the business of life. They can see that you are searching for something (your soul?) and hoping, with compassion, that you can find happiness.

I appreciate all the responses here, I have learned something from all of you. I thought that was the reason we are all here. I'm not so sure anymore that that is why ALL of us are here.

[Virginia]

Hey Girls this is great! It is like taking a graduate course in relationships or something like that. First I guess that I have learned that I/we CD'ers have a lot to learn, some of us want to learn and some could care less, (presernt company excluded). What I have learned is that I was not dressed like a slut, I did not look like a slut, I did not feel like a slut, but I am a crossdresser and my challenge then and now was to pass, nothing else! At least in one GG's eyes, no mattter how distorted her vision and attitude, I passed. To take the situation to the level that Terri has asked has been very enlightening for me and for that I will be forever thankful as when we stop learning - well its all over as far as I am concerned. I want to learn and you girls are the best teachers I have ever had!! Again Terri, I apologize for my simplistic, immature post. However I have been able to acccomplish two things with this. One is that it confrims to me that I did pass and second I have learned a life lesson relative to GG's and I assure you I will carry this lesson with me to the grave. Thanks girls you are all professors in the graduate school of life. I may have started with a D- but with your help I will convert that to an "A"
Love you all,
Virginia

[Beauty]

Hi Virginia,

You are so awesome!!!! If I am half of what you are as a human being I think I'm over blessed.

Your post was just incredibly loving and proves you are every bit the femme persona you wear when you are dressing or not dressing.

I'm totally wow'd by your post. It's clarity, it's positivity, and your understanding. Ok.. I will only say one more word about it. "Wonderful!"

Beauty

[Jassmine(SO)]

Howdy Y'all

First I would like to say that I agree with Elizabeth in that I do not sense any mysogyny here. What I see is that most of these folks here hold a deep respect for women. I say most, only because nothing is ever %100. Which would lead me into CJ's question:

Attitudes toward the meaning of womanhood is often a bone contention between CD's and GG's (whether or not they're SO's). I know it's a touchy subject. Suuzin, a GG, once tried to bring it up, but was shouted down by many. Let's hope this won't happen here. All voices matter and are equally important. I'll admit, though, that I especially want to hear from GG's on this one because they're usually on the receiving end of our attitudes as men (or as crossdressers, in the case of SO's).

I feel that, as with most things, this is a matter of personal opinion. One person's view of womanhood will enevitably vary from another's, even amognst GGs. Myself, I see womanhood as not that much different from manhood. We are all human. Yes, women have had to face different challenges and social pressures, but that is society's doing. Also, how women react and respond to these societal perceptions varies greatly. Some women are happy being a stay at home mom and housewife. Others wish to do other things, and some want it all. The same can be said for men.
It all boils down to personal choice and it's all good

*Hugs & Love*