CDing and Marital Failure

[Hayley]

Honey (SO),
Thank you ever so much. Your post is very insightful and non-judgemental and allows an outside(ish) perspective to my queries.

Just a small thing, but I have never denied credit where credit is due. And certainly not something I ever denied my ex-wife.

Yes you GG's have a lot to put up with, but by the same token, what about the males. From the day we were born we are expected to grow up to be the all loving, hard working, strong and tearless, bread winning provider to the so called "Weaker Sex". What I don't understand is why so many women play this "I'm hurt" card when it could very well be the GG who is the vicious one, and using a bit of conniving and a few tears, all the sympathy in the world falls into her lap. The poor male is treated like he is something that was just scraped off of the bottom of her shoes.

Sorry about the rant.

Kathy (SO).
I understand what you are trying to say. But cannot see how it is that it is only the wife who sacrifices things for her husband. I have sacrificed an awful lot to this woman, and it shall take quite some time to recover from these sacrifices. However, I am strong, I am living, I am a survivor. I just don't need to attack her credability or dignity to get an opinion across.

Sorry if this sounds harsh Ladies. My apologies if it does.
Love to you all and my deepest thanks for all the responses. You are all so special.

[Virginia]

Honey, thank you, thank you , thank you. When you and Kathy and the other SO's post I read and reread what you say, sometimes it exceeds my querys and other times it leave me asking Huh???? I am beginning to formulate a postulate that most GG's who honestly and truthfully endeavor to understand "us" just can not?!?! Although there are different "phases" for "us" like a spectrum that some are at one end others in the middle and others at the other end. Some of us seek the why? others are just content to dress and never bother to ask "what is with me?" "why am I doing this?" I doubt that I will ever find the answer that I seek and have posted, based on all things being equal, no children, no family, no neighbors, in hte mix, "What is so threating about a crossdresser?" You have given me insight in to the self-absorbsion aspect, selfishness aspect. But what of me? I do not feel I am selfish. My spouse has seen my wardrobe, I have told her I am a crossdresser and she has said she does not ever want to (meet) see Virginia and I have gone out of my way to respect her wishes, but yet she is seeking a divorce and CD'ing is her major concern. You point out that in most divorces that CD'ing is usually not the only "problem>" That could be very true to but I have to reference my search: What is so threating?
Again thanks for being there for us and keep lending a helping hand!
Love,
Virginia

[Oregon (SO)]

You haev to understand 'I' peronally have never had any of these things happen in relation to my own 'acceptnace' towards cding. In case you dont' know who I am, I actually dated choose to marry and wanted a crossdresser. So, I am only sharing with you what some women have told me over the years. Also, I used my personal 'football' story becuase that is the closest thign in my own relationship that I have to compare with a wife who is working on understanding crossdressing. I hope you and other understood my coralation there.
But I do think alot of women do feel they have the right to change their minds about this. Accept one day and damn in the next. I think alot of women go through cycles of positive acceptance and then negative feelings, truly a rollercoaster ride. I know on the ladies list I moderate everyone always comments hwo one day they think they have it under control and the next day they feel like they are losing their minds.

I think the culture thing is possible, but it trly goes back to our cavemen ancestors I belive. In a sense women are still looking for the strongest caveman to bring home the meat. Obvouisly some things have changed, instead of hunters it is more having a stable job to provide, ect, ect. But it still coems down to that for alot of women.

I also have heard, and again, please know this is not 'my ' peronal belief, but women marry men because they want that feeling of being protected, loved by a masculine presence, ect, not a best girlfriend ect.

This is only my personal observation. It is not pleasant and I dot' necessarily approve or think this is the way to go, but I do know it happens and for many this is how they feel. But sometimes it is hard for some to admit because it certainly does put us women in a not so positive light. I mean, being manipulative is not a trait women want to own up to. No body likes that negativeness assocaited to their gender right?

hugs
kathy

Now I would like to address your post! Please don't get me wrong, but are you saying that (some) women have a built-in myrtar complex. Oh, I have questions?!! and evidently misunderstandings. So addtionally your saying that women have the innate right to (how do I say this) constantly "flip-flop" ie., change their minds on any and everything that affects them one way or the other?? This is evidently true as a lot of us (males in general) experience this. Is it just part of the gender to do this and (don't get upset)) get away with it???IF this is the case and it is simply, well not simple but a "gender thing." IT can explain why one day she is OK with crossdressing and the next she seems to lose her mind over it!!?? I am in search of an answer to the big question and that is (assuming all things being equal, ie the CD'er does not want to go beyond dressing) Just what is so threating to SO's about crossdressing???? I understand the children, the family the neighbors etc. It is only the SO's reaction that I seek. One sage has stated that is is a cultural thing. Women in "western culture" are taught that it is just not acceptable for men to wear anything feminine but it's Ok for women to wear anything male. If a man wears anything feminine he is (what)? not a man, less of a man, a pervert , Gay, - how is he less of something when in actuality he is more because he has an additional "gift." In India men with "feminine" tendencies are held in very high esteem as being (above average) sense they have the ability to (express) both genders. But in Western society we are to be shunned, ostersized, laughed at, etc. Just too weird!
Sorry for the rant!
Virgina

[Oregon (SO)]

Well Darlene I can say that I have never looked at my actions as dishonest. I never pretended to like football from the start. He knows my participation is done to keep him happy. But I will say this, in my heart it will never be a 'bad' thing for him to enjoy. ANd thankfuly his enjoyemnt in this activity is not dependant on me being around to watch a game with him. I think he would 'like' it but he stilll enjoys it regardless if I am present or not.

I also think, that given my real enjoyment for his crossdressing that I can be allowed some lenancy towards not being into something else he enjoys, like football.

Trust me when I say that this is an issue we have ever had anything (resembeling) an argument about. We actualy have amazing commmunication and repsect and love for each other. I just hate football.
I mainly used my football experince as an explanation regardign what alot of women do and why the reactions happen like they do in relation to cding. Sicne I have no negative issue with dressing, this is as close as I can come to a situatoin where I can sorta relate to the women who do have problems.

I hope this explains more....
hugs
kat in canada

Kathy, I am sorry for Hayley and I have "been there done that" and she also has all my support I can offer in this forum.

Now I too would like to address your post. The actions that you have described in your post (re things done to appease your husband) is in my opinion not being honest, with yourself or him. It is also not being true to yourself. And it is not taking care of yourself.

Actions do in fact speak much louder than words. And particularly these kind of actions are the cause of time when you boil over.

They also contribute to the misunderstanding that many men have with their wives. As it is sending two different messages.

I am not offended by what you have posted, I just see what I have drawn attention to as being your responsibility.

Love Darlene.

[Kay(SO)]

I'll probably end up being late getting my kids to school and off to work but couldn't resist sticking a few words in here too. It's in my nature and this is a topic that has come up time and time again on other lists I've been a part of. And remember, I'm just speaking from my own experiences and what has been shared with me by others.

First, this is the primary reason I've been working on a book which I titled last year; A Matter of Perspective. Because I keep seeing that there are so many differences in the way that we see things, whether due to gender, culture or something completely different. And the truth is there may be those of us that never have an understanding of someone else's perspective.

An example is Virginia's question of What is so threatening? Well, even though I knew before marrying my husband and chose to do so I can tell you that I still feel "threatened" by his CDing and it's been 7 years. What exactly makes me feel this way or what's it about? I'll try to explain some of it and the rest, I don't even understand myself and feel like it's irrational. The emotional part of me is full of fear. He's told me a thousand times he's not gay, he's told me he has no interest in dressing full time, he's told me that he has no interest in letting the kids know, he is open to whatever limits I may need to impose because he's so appreciative of whatever I offer related to dressing. You would think I'd feel just hunky dory. Not so. CDing has conjured up feelings of insecurity that I've never had to deal with and try as I might, I can't seem to get past some of them. Do I yet believe that he doesn't want to experience sex with a man to feel like the "woman"? If I'm to be honest, I would say no. Somewhere way deep in my being, I still feel threatened. Am I convinced that he won't want to dress full time at some point? Obviously not since I panic when I think about our retirement years, certain that he'll change his mind. Why, I don't know. He has been honest with me about so many things when it comes to CDing. Does it make sense? Probably not. But the point is, the thoughts and feelings are still there and I can't just make them go away. In truth, there's probably nothing he could say or do to convince me. The only way I know is as each day passes. The anxiety from these thoughts and feelings is unbearable at times but I remind myself of the trust we share. I have to or I'd go crazy while my brain and heart run off on tangents.

There may be those of you who have no understanding of what I'm saying but this is how it is for me and for other women who have sought support. Some of these thoughts and feelings come from the fact that no matter how hard I try I will never understand what it's like for him. The way that I've been able to do all of those things on Haley's list to support my husband is to live in the compassion that I have found for him and the fact that this is just who he is and that he has his own form of agony at times to deal with. I have done alot to show my support. Some days it's easy and other days I truly do wish it would all just go away. Does that mean I don't truly support him? I think not. It just means that some days I don't necessarily like it. I choose to be supportive because I love him. If that makes me a martyr then so be it. I tend to look at it as just another part of what we do in relationships; compromise. He gives and so do I.

To some of you, you may wonder what the big hairy deal is? Well, for me it's that emotionally and mentally it has brought such confusion in my life and now I live on a constant roller coaster. Living that way is difficult and not everyone can do it without wanting to barf or get off. Some want to get off completely while other's of us get off and take a break and then climb right back on. This is the truth and you can believe it. Whether I was told and knew about my husband's CDing isn't really the point. The feelings that come from trying to comprehend and wrap my brain around it, the multitudes of emotions that I go through each and everytime he dresses, whether I play a part in it or not are something that unless you experience you will never understand.

I do not speak for all women. I speak for myself. I see this as a journey. One that I have chosen to take for now. As for Haley's wife saying that part of the reason she's leaving the marriage is due to CDing. Well, you can believe it. She may have just been tryin to be hurtful but then again, she may be sincere in that she tried to ride the coaster and couldn't deal with it. The truth is that she may have realized that all of the support she tried to offer just wasn't being true to who she is. Perhaps it was like going against the grain for herself and she needed to go for self preservation. And why is that wrong?

One last thing, I have known women who have left BECAUSE of the CDing. I even get women arguing that this simply can't be true. They insist that the couple had to have other issues that led to the demise of this marriage. Sure they had other issues, all relationships do. But one woman in particular left because she chose not to live with the CDing and for no other reason. She made a choice and didn't want it in her life and she loved her husband dearly. Sometimes love is not enough. And anyone can dispute this too but it's my opinion and mine alone. If you feel otherwise, that's okay. I'm just saying there's no point in arguing the point with me.

Oh yea, and I too hope that I haven't offended anyone. I'm not angry or writing in hostility. Just trying to show another perspective. Important topic and one I am passionate about. I've got 9 chapters done and will keep forging ahead. It just goes to show you that we all see and feel things differently. It's all a matter of perspective... and for me that is something that changes from moment to moment.

Kay(SO)

[Virginia]

Kay, I will be willing to write a note to the school excusing your kids for being late??!!!
Your response surely confirms what I have felt and scientifically is no doubt true. Men and women are different - TO paraphrase the "great commedian "You might be a redneck if...." Men are such simple souls, reading the mind of an 80 year old in a nursing home, pushing a walker down the hall he only has two things on his mind - "I want a beer and I'd like to see something naked!" Women are such complex creatures, empathy, love, understanding, emotions, far beyond what we simple males can comprehend. Your post just confirms this and my SO and evidently Hayley's fall into the category of just not wanting or being able to handle it and getting off the merry-go-round! I posted elsewhere, but my wife is just not even the least bit interested in even trying to learn about it, or discuss it. Each GG accepts it in her own way and we (the crossdresser) are left to deal with it as best we can.
The evident answer to my query:"What is so threating to an SO about crossdressing?" Is, "It will vary widely within each relationship and each GG will handle it in her own way." We as crossdressers must be atuned enough to our spouse's feeling to understand how she is handling it and if we love them, bend to their will as it is an infringement upon their psyche.
Plus the fact most GG's have never experienced this "assualt" on their assumption of what relationships with a male/ marriage is suppose to be.
THANKYOU FOR ALL YOU HAVE DONE AND ALL YOU DO AND WILL DO FOR US --- YOU ARE A TREASURE - MY GOD CONTINUE TO SHED HER BLESSINGS ON YOU!!!
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Kay,

I happen to be one CDer who does understand what you are saying, and where you are coming from.

The truth is that she may have realized that all of the support she tried to offer just wasn't being true to who she is. Perhaps it was like going against the grain for herself and she needed to go for self preservation.

That was the whole point behind my response to Kathy.
I believe some of this needs to be about taking care of ones self.

Love Darlene.

[DonnaT]

Thank you Kay.

I believe my wife is going through those same emotions. After 29 years of knowing, and marriage, she will still question by intent for the future. Do you want hormones, do you want a sex change, etc.

In one recent post I remarked that I would like 'unconditional love' from my wife, and I realize now that may never be possible. The love she gives by trying to understand and trying to cope with her feelings is enough.

Thanks again.

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

This has been a most insightful thread. And I do beleive that some women just can not cope with the CDing. I remember when I first came here, I was totally amazed that Sharon(SO) not only accepted and supported her husband's crossdressing, but opened up her life for the public to inspect, by running this site to support crossdressers and those trying to cope with crossdressing.

I think there is a lot to be said about our instinctual nature. And women do have an instinctual inclination to select a man that she perceives as a protector and provider. Just as men are inclined to select a woman as a perspective bearer and nurturer of children without being directly aware of it.

I do beleive for many women that losing the ability to see their mate as a protector or provider instinctually, because of crossdressing, dooms the marriage. I also have not lost sight of the fact that (SO)'s also have not only the weight of society reminding them we are obviously not good protectors or providers, but also have to face their own families. I am sure that it is most difficult for a SO to face her own father with him knowing she married a feminine man. Because there is an underpinning of society that women look for men like thier fathers, it is almost an attack on thier fathers identity, although I have not heard anyone say this, I don't see how it could not be true. And I am sure the SO fares no better when confronting her mother or sister(s). I am sure there is an underlying "ahh, you couldn't get a real man" kind of undertone.

So when we ask our SO's to accept us, we are asking for much more than that. We are asking her to somehow disregard her instincts. We are asking to accept that everything we have all been taught about the rules of our society be disregarded by our SO, so she can accept this about us.

After all? We did not make us this way. And we know that we are still the same person they married. We know that it is impossble to understand why we must express this feminine part of ourselves to keep our own sanity.

I think in the end it boils down to one of Dr Phil's "Life Laws". "Some people get it, and some people don't". And those who don't "get it", never will.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Virginia]

Elizabeth, Honey please - I would rather die than think that my wife thinks I am anything like my father-in-law. The old guy has lost it! First, last week he accused me of being responsible for my first wife's drug addiction! Like I have said, punching out an 83 year old retired minister does not look go on one's resume . Second the old guy thinks that in his 83 years he as been able to accumulate all the knowledge of mankind even before the written word!!!! You can not tell him anything, he knows everything and at this juncture in my fading relationship with my wife after his comment last week I will not have anything to do with him ever again. Immature on my part?? Maybe, but I really don't care. I may go to hell, but "screw him ------ idiot old man!!!"
I must also take exception to Dr. Phil: Some just don't want to get it ergo my wife. She is one that just can not accept me for who I am. Like most of us I do not "throw it in her face." The SO's here have convinced me that CD'ing is such a trama to a lot of wives that it is something that they either never understand, accept, get over, whatever.
As far as being a protector, if I am put in that situation I am the absolute last person on earth that someone would want to mess with.
As a provider - If you count the physical ammenities we have - I have done OK! We have taken cruises, been to Hawaii, visited virtually every major city in the United States.
She just does not want to get her mind around crossdressing!
Anyway, that's my story and I am sticking to it.
I am really proud of you, Elizabeth and it has been a blessing to me to see you grow and change and become who you are meant to be!
Love,
Virginia

[Sally]

Hello Kay,

I certainly didn't read any anger in your last message. I think the insight you give is wonderful for those people who are not in a position to discuss their needs and wants with their wives.

I know my wife still has an underlying fear that my journey, although stationary atm, may not have ended. She's witnessed and been a party to my progress from closet CDing to active transition. She's been an absolute angel and never in my wildest dreams did I ever believe she would be able to cope to this point, but she's not only coped better than I ever imagined, but she's been an inspiration to me. But there has had to be compromises and balances put into effect along the way, or we would never have kept the marriage intact if I had just ploughed ahead like a steam train.

I know me being the person I am has gone against all her 'conditioning' and beliefs which she was taught growing up, but in the early days she always said she would move heaven and earth to keep our family intact, but she couldn't give any concrete gaurantees and that's as much as I or anyone could ever fairly or reasonably expect.

You are probably experiencing what she has, in that, over the years one of her greatest fears was where would it all end. It's a very common occurrence amongst CD/TG people that sometimes we're not always completely honest when we say, "This is as far as I ever want to go". For so many of us, it's something we can never say with absolute certainty, so many times we reach one level and am comfortable with it for so long then the 'train' gathers momentum again and the need to go further becomes as desperate as it ever was.

I've been so fortunate in that my wife has been able to come to terms to a large degree with making 'Sally' a part of her life, even though I know she lives with a constant fear of what comes next, and really I know that it isn't fair to her that she has to live with this underlying fear, so I give her every support she needs in coping and thankfully for the last few years I've been able to remain 'stationary' and I'm hoping it will be this way for the rest of my life. I truly empathise with you and all the other wives who endure their hubbys' 'traits'. Even though some women go into the marriage with the knowledge of their hubby to be's needs and desires, they have no way of knowing what the road ahead can consist of, even we ourselves have no idea what the future holds or where it will all lead or finish and that I assure you can be just as unstablising and emotionally difficult to deal with for many of us as it is for our partners.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that I never consciously made the choice to be a member of a supressed, minority and stigmatised group of people and earlier in my life I tried to hard to 'bury it all', that it became a real life threatening situation and I often wonder now in quieter times of how life would have been without all the emotional traumas which I've caused by being as I am, not only to me but to other people around me too, but that I'll never know.

You're one of a group of wonderful women and I you all.

My Kindest Regards,

Sally.

[Kay(SO)]

Ladies,

This has been the most interesting and wonderful thread. It is so refreshing to see the efforts that we have to try to understand the differences with men and women and lord knows there are many. But with such support and love. I am blown away by what everyone has contributed to this topic. WOW! I think this says how I'm feeling now! The insight here is just wonderful and I'm glad no one barked at me. As complex creatures, most of the time we DO want to be understood. My husband says it drives him crazy because just as he understands something about me I change. What can I say?

Keep up the good work and great topics for us to chat about and continue this journey. It truly gives me hope when I read about each and every one of your experiences too.

Kay(SO)

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

I think I want to go a little farther with this idea of doing things to appease your husband and/or wife and even a friend, that you are not interested in and even hate.

Now what follows may seem harsh, but it is the way I understand it and have dealt with it, and may not be for everyone.

If you were my SO....out of my love and respect for you....I would not want you to do something like that for me. I would not appreciate it. (in fact I would hate it). If there is nothing between you that you can really enjoy together that interests the both of you, it is my belief that you are simply incompatible. When one is engaged in something they hate (to appease another) it is destructive, it is not a bridge builder, and in fact can be the result of a hidden agenda. Hence the term you should not have to be told what I need you to do for me, you should know. And then the reply you expect me to be a mind reader?

IMO true love would want their partner to be happy. And I fail to see how one can be happy when they are attempting to sacrifice their own happiness to appease another?

One of the statements that I live by is that if you can not give me what I want or need from a happy heart, you had better keep it. I simply do not want it. The cost is much to high. There is simply no room for that kind of thing in my life anymore. Been there done that kind of stuff and have had enough, don't expect it from me you will not get it.

A healthy relationship needs to consider the serenity of both individuals. No?

And IMO one who is unable to protect their own serenity will be unable to give proper consideration to the serenity of another. there is not really a lot more to it than that, as far as I can see it.

Love Darlene.

[Jassmine(SO)]

Howdy Darlene

Excellent points! I couldn't agree more

*Hugs & Love*