Been trying for a week now to word this.... (Strong Topic)

[Kay(SO)]

CJ,

Thanks for your insightful post. It was wonderful to have a gentle slap in the face to bring me around to what I already know as being so true. Whew. I'm glad that's past! I'm still here and you're right. I need to forge ahead for myself and the other's on here who do get what they need from my posting and contributions. I was simply having a bit of a tantrum. I'm better now. And girl could I give some fashion tips! Thanks again for the continued encouragement and support sweetie! I do love it here and occasionally go off the deep end when I get upset. Gently shaking my shoulders usually works to bring me to my senses and I'm grateful for those of you who know it and nudge me when I need it! Much love and hugs ladies,

Kay(SO)

[Loretta Ann]

Hey Kay
We love you.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Kay,



Talking matters. Listening matters. It's how we grow. I don't always agree with what SO's (or CD's, for that matter) say but I'd consider myself poorer for being deprived of the occasion to see or understand things from an SO's point of view--whatever that SO's experience is.

Even though we don't hear from all the SO's, you're in good company, Kay. For the record:

Sharon, Lefty, Curly, Kathy, Amber, Love, Rebecca, Honey, Mimi, Marie, Lou, Kirdy, Suuzin, Robin, Shirley, Jassmine, Mandy, Gin, Cathy, Li'l One, Golden Maia, Terri, Kimmie, Bubbles, Boo, Catkisser, Mrs. Missy, Helen, Kaza, Steel Maiden, Leesa, Karen Lyn, Tamara, Raven, and many more that choose to remain more or less silent.

I'm glad you're here. All of you.

Love,
CJ

[Oregon (SO)]

Hi all,

It was me that started that dreaded thread. I feel kind of bad, but I also feel like maybe it helped this couple possibly talk about something. you know if there is one thing we can all agre on, it is how when one partner says one thing the other is bound to read it a different way. I think a common question asked of couples who have such different perspectives is : do you have enough sex? and how much? A woman may answer "oh my god ! we do it 3 times a week! Too much! " and yet the guy will say "oh mygod we dont' have enough sex, we only do it 3 times a week! Too little!"

So it does not surprise me when I see disagreements like this. Shannon I dont' know you very well. Gosh, you probably dont' know me as I rarely have time to post. I only hope this at least got you and your wife talking about a possibly uncomfortable subject. I also feel like the absolute worst possible person to even comment sometimes on these boards as I choose to date and marry a crossdresser. i dont' have any real trouble spots in relation to his dressing. SO it does sadden me alot to see when people are feeling like they are not getting what they need.

I hope for both your sakes that this awarard moment has at least started some new converstaion

hugs to you both
kathy in canada

[Shannon]

Second only to the great friends I have made here.....

Woops.... typo??? Nah por English skills

What I ment to say is you are are second to my wife.... sorry to all but she is really great....

Now, how to responde to all the posts... I think I will keep it simple. I am not trying to bash anybody.... I am not trying to throw my "founder" weight around... I am not trying to make SO's feel unwelcome....

All three of those items are the fartest from what I want to do....

I am just trying to express how I feel when I read things that present me in an incorrect light, it does hurt.... I don't like feeling that all the efforts I make to keep others happy is quickly forgotten or never seen in the first place.....

I realize I don't share a whole lot about myself here... I just tend to "barK" when I get hurt or irritated.... I appreciate all the supportive posts and also appreciate all the posts pointing out where I may make mistakes... I do make plenty of mistakes and often fail to realize it....

One strange thing, is after I typed the initial post I felt alot better about myself and my relationship with my wife.... Just to get out the thoughts (where correct or not) it made me feel better

It is late for me right now and I will comment more detailedly on some of the posts above later....

But just to say again.. thanks for the all the thoughts, supportive and corrective....

And listen to what CJ said above.... she is pretty damn smart....

Shannon

[Jessie]

Shannon, I just read your post and I had to respond to to right away. In my theropy sesion today I talked with him about how when I write it is easier for to put down my feelings. He says that some people are like that writing down your feelings can sometimes be easier than speaking verbaly. I just thought that would explain, maybe, how you suddenly felt better after having written out your feelings then you felt better about them. Any way, way to go.

[CJ]

Totally! However else we may view our lives, and life in general, and despite whatever disagreements may surface between any two members of this board, setting our thoughts down "on paper" (so to speak) is, or can be, a tremendously therapeutic act. This is one of the great values of this forum.

Shannon:

Love,
CJ

[Missy]

Dear Kay(SO):

I'm sorry I haven't responded more quickly, but we have had this little problem here called "work".

I would like to reiterate my opinion that we are all members of a small family, so to speak, and really should stick together like family. Unfortunately, in every family I have ever known there were disagreements, and sometimes very heated ones. It does seem to me after reading later posts, that there will be progress made out of this, which I am very hopeful to see.

I was previously aware that you were a supporting SO, having married with prior knowledge. I don't recall thinking about your particular posts when I "spilled my guts" above. I have to assume that you consider yourself to be one of the negativ-ites, or you would not have reacted as you did. Please be assured that I welcome all opinions, even though they may be negative. However, they should be constructively negative rather than just being, in your words, "whiney". One of my points was that I rarely read anything positive in the SO section. I would think that it should be at least 50/50. If it's true that you married your CDer with prior knowledge, it reminds me of an age old joke which is very true, I think, and that is -- that a woman marries a man hoping that he'll change, and a man marries a woman hoping that she won't. I assume that since you chose the lifestyle, you should be happy with it.

I think that your response to my post has actually proven my main point far better than I could have done so myself. I aired two problems – one that my wife and I have, and the other that Shannon has. During your entire post, you never addressed either my problem or Shannon's problem. You only talked about your problem and how annoyed you were to have had it pointed out. For that matter, no other SO came forward to talk about them either. Do you think there could be a possibility that I and/or Shannon may need some support here too? You also said that if an SO feels left out, then she should continue to offer support. How do you expect anyone to continue offering support who gets ignored because she has a different (positive) view? Reciprocity with continuing dialogue is the point, not monologue.

After my stated problems have been addressed with reasonable discussion, only then will I feel that we will have moved forward in the CD/SO forum relationship arena.

By the way, I loved your burning smiley. It made my day and I knew your threats to leave were not serious. I think you're having too much fun here, even after hearing from me.

A suggestion for this forum, considering all the comments that this has brought forth, would be to have a "solid gold" area not restricted to either SO or CD, where only positive comments are allowed that move the CD and the SO toward a happier life together. Then our GGs would be able to know where to go to get their spirits uplifted, if they so desire. We, here, realize that there are many rough spots, (we had quite a few in the beginning), and would like to think that we can help everyone in some way move toward the happiness and fun that we have.

Believe me, your feelings are important to me and I look forward to your reply.

Hugs,

Missy

[Kyra]

I have to agree with CJ. Venting our feelings, whether written or verbal is still venting. AND it does help.

This thread says something to me as well. I have followed it just as many others have. What makes me all warm and fuzzy inside is the fact that so many people responded. And so quickly! To me, that speaks the truth about the integrity and honesty of this forum. People here really care. They care enough to be blunt when the feel the need. They care enough to show when they're hurt. They even wear their emotions on their sleeves. (that's not always a good thing) SOs and CDs being truthful. It's heart-warming. It's Love. Pure and beautiful.

I commend you all.
Hugs,
Kyra

[Virginia]

Well girls (GG's, SO's and Us): unless someone disagrees I will take credit for the "SO's input is solid gold!" I stand by that as reading this thread cover to cover just further supports that. Second, it was mentioned about my having been called a slut. I related this story (and it is true, I was leaving a movie theater and a women/GG sitting in an aisle seat looked me over and voiced her opinion of me in those terms. I posted that and the fact that I did not respond, but (and I don't remember my exact words in my description of my feelings but basically it made me feel good that I had "passed."). I was "taken to task/ or to the wood shed" as the case may be by more than one SO. They quickly educated me that perhaps the comment was uncalled for, but even worse was my feeling of success - that I had passed. Their point was that if we go out in public and present ourselves as women then that should be carried over to how we feel when we are insulted, not to feel elated about passing! That had never even entered my mind that it was insulting, which it should have been had I been in a more advanced delvelopmental state.
This forum, as I have said over and over, has done more for me than most who post here will ever know - I think I am not alone in this! So as the song says, "Don't worry, Be Happy!" We have something here that some of us would have to pay upwards of $100.00+ and hour to get outside this forum. The support we give each other and here we know it is sincere and from the heart it's priceless. Group hug!!!!!
Love ya all,
Virginia

[Kay(SO)]

Missy,

As I'm sure you expected, I'll reply to a few things that you wrote.

However, they should be constructively negative rather than just being, in your words, "whiney". One of my points was that I rarely read anything positive in the SO section.

I find it interesting that you use the word "should" here. How can we control what it is we're feeling? If we're feeling negative, pissed off or whiny then why shouldn't we be able to post exactly that? There are times when I am not capable of saying anything constructive. I just need to gripe and express myself. Does this mean that I shouldn't post it in the SO's section but on one of my SO only lists? If I've got someone here telling me what I should and shouldn't post or how I should or shouldn't feel then the whole purpose of having a support group appears to me to be moot. I understand that is probably what you and others may want to read but it's not always my reality if that's not how I'm feeling.

If it's true that you married your CDer with prior knowledge, it reminds me of an age old joke which is very true, I think, and that is -- that a woman marries a man hoping that he'll change, and a man marries a woman hoping that she won't. I assume that since you chose the lifestyle, you should be happy with it.

The assumption that I chose this lifestyle so I "should" be happy with it. Again that word. Just because I'm choosing to attempt to find a way to live with this lifestyle doesn't mean that I'm happy with it. I'm making efforts to support and except something that I don't comprehend or like. If I get to the point where I realize I can't then I'll leave. It doesn't mean that I'm not exstatically happy with other aspects of my marriage. It means that explains why I'm in groups like these to try to figure out, process, learn, grow and hopefully eventually come to terms with CDing and this part of my husband and my life. For some of us, the way we are able to express ourselves so freely aides in that process of going from hating it to finally being able to realize that it's insignificant when we look at the bigger picture of the man we married. It seems that you can't understand that part of it. I NEED to be able to be negative when I want to and not be judged or criticized for it. I need to feel free to whine everyday until I don't feel like whining anymore. Not have someone tell me that I need to be more positive.

During your entire post, you never addressed either my problem or Shannon's problem. You only talked about your problem and how annoyed you were to have had it pointed out.

That's right. I didn't mention anything about you, Shannon or your issues because I was expressing how I felt about what you wrote. I expressed my feelings about Shannon's issue in a separate post. And from what I could tell your problem is that your wife is uncomfortable posting in the SO's section because we're all so negative. Well, it's been my experience that it would be useful for her to let other's know how she got to where she is rather than judging them for being in a negative place. And who's to say how long someone will be in that place? It could be ongoing and yes, may become tiresome but it's part of the process.

Do you think there could be a possibility that I and/or Shannon may need some support here too?

I'm sure that you do or you wouldn't be posting here. But as stated above that was not the intention of my post. It was not intended to be about you or Shannon but about how I feel about what you wrote. That reminds me of how sometimes my husband and I will be talking and when I go to express feelings I have he somehow turns it around to be about him and basically says, "what about me?" Well, we weren't talking about him. At least I wasn't. I was talking about me. It doesn't mean that I don't offer support to either of you, just that that wasn't the time I was doing it.

After my stated problems have been addressed with reasonable discussion, only then will I feel that we will have moved forward in the CD/SO forum relationship arena.

I'm not sure how to respond to this. It seems that you want to have some sort of control in what is said in the SO arena and how it is said. If your wife was ignored it probably is that no one posting at the time could relate to her positive attitude. So? You can't force people to be where she's at or to be comfortable chatting with someone who is at the opposite end of the spectrum of feelings. It's unfortunate and I'm sure didn't make her feel very welcomed or good. For that, I feel it's a shame. That's where I have issue with the word "should". No one has the right to tell someone else how they "should" feel. I think it's grand and hunky dory that your wife is so happy with that part of you. There are actually several SO's who I know feel the same and have posted their support many times. I guess you two just haven't seen it.

By the way, I loved your burning smiley. It made my day and I knew your threats to leave were not serious. I think you're having too much fun here, even after hearing from me.

At the time I wrote that post, I was burning. I'm not anymore and the truth is that I'm not having fun. I really don't enjoy feeling like I'm not being heard or understood. I also don't like feeling judged or put down. Some of the things you have said I get those feelings from, such as the below:

A suggestion for this forum, considering all the comments that this has brought forth, would be to have a "solid gold" area not restricted to either SO or CD, where only positive comments are allowed that move the CD and the SO toward a happier life together.

The assumption that those of us expressing negative feelings or thoughts are not "solid gold" or that we don't belong in that category unless we have something nice to say I find offensive.

I know that I'm Solid Gold, everyday that I stay here with my husband and support his CDing. Even if I do it bitching all the way. What I do for him related to CDing many women wouldn't even consider. In fact, most of my SO friends think I'm nuts and have stated that they would leave first. Not me. I'm solid gold, an angel from above, the best thing that ever happened to him and he's lucky to have me.

And lastly, your assumption that by being negative we're not working toward a positive life together is another example that you don't comprehend the process of getting to that point. Being positive is not how I work through negative feelings. Maybe I'm the only one but I need to be able to sit with it for awhile, express it, have some validation for it being okay to be where I'm at and not told that I need to be more positive by someone who happens to be in a better place. I'm not a cheerleader for Cding and probably never will be. I just want the right to be where I'm at. And if it seems like this post is all about me, me me well it may well be. But it's also for other's like me who are afraid to come forward or who don't want to get into a verbal tussel. Not that this is what this is. I see it as a way for us to come to some kind of understanding of where the other is coming from.

Thanks for providing me the opportunity to express myself again. It feels good to get it out. And I'm not angry. Just a passionate person and usually come across that way. My husband calls it a dynamic personality, advocating for myself and other SO's. Must be the social worker in me coming through! Hugs to you too.

Kay(SO)

[Kay(SO)]

Don't laugh. You would have thought I'd have been done after that last huge post but I thought of another thing.

My concern now is that there will be many SO's who will not post anymore at all based on this discussion. They may be afraid that they will sound too negative so why bother posting their feelings here to have someone complain about it. Just a thought. And to me that would be a shame.

Kay(SO)

[Virginia]

Kay, your post is exactly what I reference as being "solid gold." Those of my sisters that have to deal with the issue of cross-dressing on a domestic level should read all the SO's responses and gleen from them what they feel would work best in their own home! Unless their SO is soooo unique as to totally accept, participate and reward cross-dressing, then they are to deal with the feminine attempt to interpret just what is going on with "us." How an SO expresses herself in her attempt to understand us will no doubt vary, but for those SO's willing to even discuss it would seem like a blessing to the cross-dresser. Anyone who wants to trade places with me and have a spouse who refuses to learn, read, study, talk etc. about it - it is a different world than together trying to find a happy medium.
Love,
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Hi everyone,

One persons junk is another persons treasure, One persons Solid Gold may well have no value to someone else. And that is just how life is.

I agree with you Kay that when referring to other people there is no place for the word should. If you want to be written off by me, just telling me what I should or shouldn't do or be doing will do the trick like nothing else.

No one has been given that right over others. Those kind of statements tend to infringe on our right to be who we are.

One would think that the experience of being a cross-dresser, who has had to deal with many in society attempting to tell us that we should not be doing what we are doing. Would help us to be able to make that connection. But apparently that is not the situation.

My concern now is that there will be many SO's who will not post anymore at all based on this discussion. They may be afraid that so why bother posting their feelings here to have someone complain about it. Just a thought. And to me that would be a shame.

Like wise I fear that CDers will feel that way due to the fact they will sound too negative to the SOs and will not be supported by them, and possibly others as has been demonstrated in this thread.

And for those who feel that way there might be some wisdom in recognizing who their enemy really is, and taking some steps to overcome that enemy/fear.

I believe that in any mixed group of people it will be impossible to create a situation where everyone will be able to feel safe. And if some are turned away by that reality it may be a good thing.

I feel that it is harmful to attempt to create a place free from that sort of thing as that tends to attempt to make others responsible for issues that are not theirs to deal with.

I mean at some point in our lives, do we not have to learn to live in the real world, or do we continue to create a fantasy world, that would excuse us from that responsibility?

One of my best teachers has been to have been on the outside. Which served to force me to find my own answers, that would allow me to feel comfortable in the world of reality. And I believe it is helpful for all of us to spend some time there at certain stages in life, but harmful to remain there. I think there comes a time (which probably occurs more than once in our life) when there is wisdom in being able to flush so that we can move on.

Love Darlene.

[Jassmine(SO)]

Howdy Y'all

Kay Wrote:

Well, it's been my experience that it would be useful for her to let other's know how she got to where she is rather than judging them for being in a negative place.

Ah I concur, and indeed I have posted what has worked for me:

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:33 pm

Howdy Y'all


Ah, everyone is entitled to their feelings. But there comes a time when one must figure out what are causing those feelings, in order to resolve them and let them go. Anger, resentment, and betrayal, when hung onto do damage to one's self, those they love and those who love them.

Is this an easy process....HECK NO! Been there done it, and I continue to do so. I take a good look at myself on a regular basis, to see what is going on with me. Why did I feel anger at what someone did to me? Why did I feel hurt? By learning the "whys" I can then resolve the problem, and let it go. Now the easy answer to why did I feel anger is that person did something to make me angry. Next question...Why did he/she do that? Was it because of something I might have done, or is that person just being who they are? As you can see the questions can become many and varied.

I posted this under Links Of Interest, but for those who don't visit that section, I will repost it here:


http://www.trans4mind.com/transformatio ... rm2.16.htm

Lots of excellent information here, for everyone

The above process has worked for myself and Ahzz. I really do work through and resolve any issues I have on a regular basis. Through this process I have found true inner peace and balance in my life

*Hugs & Love*