Talking about feelings... worse than pulling teeth.

A 'round table' for CDs, TGs and GG/SOs to talk with each other. We're all in this together, so let's make the most of it.

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Kay(SO)
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Post by Kay(SO) »

Interesting thread here. I just wanted to put in a few thoughts regarding some of what I read:
It does not change the fact that forcing you DH to change his behavior because of that embarrassment, or feelings of disgust at seeing another woman instead of the man you married, are still just repression and will prevent him from ever having real self esteem, because this is not true acceptance.
In relationships, I don't think an SO, "forces" her DH to change his behavior. I think that it's part of the compromising and negotiating. The one things that I didn't see talked about is that as SO's we're not telling our CD'rs not to be who they are or to feel how they feel. What we're saying is that you can have the feelings and the need but that we would appreciate controlling some of the behaviors. And that can be done without sending a CD'r into suicide mode. If you can figure out how to meet the needs of both people in the relationship then you can work things out. It's only repression is he NEVER gets to act on the feelings or if he continues to feel as though his CDing needs are met.

My own DH is so grateful to have someone in his life who remotely tolerates, accepts or participates in Cding with him that he doesn't push beyond my levels of comfort. If he needs more than what he's getting, we discuss it and we figure out ways to meet those needs and still remain in my own comfort zone as well.
It is saying that you don't really accept who he is, and I just don't see how he could ever feel like you accept him, as long as you don't really accept him, regardless of the feelings of embarrassment or shame you may feel.
My own DH doesn't fully accept himself and we work together toward this acceptance as well as him working with a therapist. All I ask is that he respect my feelings and my position and I offer him the same. I'm not telling him who he can and can't be. I'm telling him what I can and cannot live with. He has choices about what he can accept as far as my need for discretion or limits.
When the SO does not fully accept the true nature of her CDing DH, it is still rejection in the mind of the CDer. This is why they are reluctant to open up anymore. They are back to defense. Back to self preservation.
Not true in our case. He doesn't feel rejected in the least because like I said, he's never had anyone in his life who was willing to even try to understand or accept him. He is patient and kind about my feelings and waited for two years for me to process everything and move forward. He did this because he loves me and wanted to have me in his life and wanted to share this part of himself with me when I was ready.

Anyway, that's just me. The truth is that our society does not greet CDing with open arms and understanding. And that may never happen.

Kay(So)[/quote]
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Post by Jassmine(SO) »

Hello All ..o)..

Kay wrote:
The truth is that our society does not greet CDing with open arms and understanding. And that may never happen.
I believe it will happen. Society has acceted, women wearing pants; it was a big thing the first time Mary Tyler Moore wore Capri Pants on the Dick Van Dyke Show. Society has accepted women in the work force and women CEOs. Society has accepted stay at home dads, inter-racial marriages, civil rights, women voting, etc..... So, if society can and has accepted all those things and then some, it is only a matter of time before CDing is accepted, as well :)

*Hugs & Love* @->->- *^^*
Blessings Eternal, Jassmine

"Love is unconditional acceptance. That quality is also our essential nature, who we really are."
--Peter Shepherd
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Post by Alexandra »

the length of that "matter of time" has a lot to do what happens this November. If the wrong person gets elected (or appointed :shock: ) again, he may very well fill up the supreme court with folks seeing thing the other way and it will take decades to undo the damage (justices serve for life).
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Post by Kay(SO) »

I guess what I meant to say was that it MAY never happen and that I personally don't see it happening in my husband's or my own lifetime. By history it seems to take so long that I doubt he will be alive to be able to enjoy it.

Kay
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Amanda Louise
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Post by Amanda Louise »

I agree with Alexandra, and for similar reasons (much as I despise Tony Blair and his cronies) I'll be hoping Labour win the UK election next year.

Though I'd be overjoyed if the Liberal Democrats got into power (extremely unlikely).
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Post by DonnaT »

My wife has similar thoughts as Kay(SO).

The main problem of acceptance starts with us, the CDer. How many guys looking like guys (not all CDs want to wear wigs and makeup) can honestly say they have the courage to put on a dress and heels, and go where they want.

Took me a while to go out with nail polish showing, or taking my exercise walk in shorts and pantyhose. Even when I was younger and had no mustache, I would take a rare walk enfemme but was always nervous, even though I thought I could pass.

Now, looking like a guy in a dress, it will take a bit more courage. HOWEVER if I could get my wife to muster the same courage and accompany me out, it would make it easier. I'm working on this. For example, I keep trying to get her to take me to the mall in heels. Maybe one day she will.

I think in a lot of cases, WE (SOs and CDs) worry about loosing the respect of our family, friends and associates. WE just need to get past that worry, and realize that those who condemn or ridicule us aren't worth klnowing anyway.

Acceptance by a larger group of society would occur faster if we went out more often. Just like the gay community. And just like the gay community, there will be a lot of non-acceptance.

IMHO
DonnaT
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Post by Chantelle »

This is an incredible thread as the responses have really hit the mark(s)!! As someone who has endured significant losses and felt considerable guilt, frustration and fear over this state of being, I would like to perhaps play devil's advocate. I think that a large part of the communication problem is the internalization of the fear on the part of the CDer. That is, if one shares this secret from a position of fear and especially fear of the unknown, then how could an SO not also feel fear and work to suppress this in their mate? Any loving partner would try to "help" by trying to stop it. By contrast, if one can anticipate the questions that will inevitably arise and show confidence in what they need and what they are expressing by CDing, then the task becomes remarkably easier. Do I make sense?

In my experience, I have shared my feelings, emotions and behaviour with my SO from a position of confidence (even though I was terrified inside). This "confidence" made it much easier for her to accept me because she KNEW that I would never seek a sex change and that I have no sexual interests in men. She also knows I will never embarass her. Thankfully, we share a common set of limits. Compared to her, I am more afraid to reveal my entire self to others.

I say this while admitting that I am still too frightened to go out because of the hillbillies that live around me. I am also well aware of potential career repercussions. On the other hand, I believe that at some point I may well have to explain myself to others. Even if I am shaking in my boots, I will try project a sense of understanding and acceptance.

One last thing, I am certainly not trying to pretend that I am hard as nails or anything like that. Many of you demonstrate greater strength than do I. I just wanted to offer the opinion that perhaps many SO's might actually find this an enjoyable road to travel if depicted as such. Alternatively, if it is depicted as the road to hell, who would want to go there?
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Post by Chantelle »

Sorry...one last thing. Since I was a child, I have felt like a criminal though I have committed no crime. I now feel as though I have "done my time" and suffered enough. No more! Currently, I keep my behaviour under wraps to an extent for the sake of my career (which will soon be 100% secure no matter what) and for my SO, but on the personal level, I am much more comfortable with myself than I was years ago and I have little tolerance for others who do not accept all of me. If a person cannot find refuge from the world in their SO, where can one ever find it?

Anyone ever watch that documentary on Brandon Teena (not the movie Boys Don't Cry)? That documentary made me really angry.
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Interesting posts, Chantelle. :) Food for thought. You wrote: If a person cannot find refuge from the world in their SO, where can one ever find it? Well, this is just it, about hiding or masking our feelings; many of us are under the impression (for a variety of reasons) that we can only find refuge in ourselves; that we cannot, in fact, find refuge from the world in those who love us and whom we love. Once you start opening up, you realize just how mistaken that impression was. Yes, of course, there are exceptions. And, no, I'm not talking about society at large--just those with whom we share our lives and our love.

Remember: the original point of this whole topic had to do with an accepting SO's wondering why, even though she was accepting of her DH's crossdressing, he seemed unable to talk about his feelings regarding this and other matters of his deepest heart.

Other than to say that we are, all of us, built differently, emotionally speaking, I have no real answer to this question. Maybe there are no answers.

Again, thanks for the posts, Chantelle. 8)

Love,
CJ
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Virginia
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Post by Virginia »

CJ, Like you say maybe there are no answers? We are back to the "Men are from Mars and Women are from Vensus." I would appear to me that as it has been pointed out, "communication." if one of the other is not willing to not only communicate, but to learn about what the topic is, then there will be problems and whether or not they are able to work through this will depend a lot on the maturity of the couple involved. This maturity and communication ability does not happen overnight and depending on how open-mnded either or both individuals are and at what point in the relationship a difficult topic arises, i.e., crossdressing, it can spell the future of the relationship.
I still feel as most of my sisters do, communication is critical and hopefully it will be mutual.
Love,
Virginia
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Kay(SO)
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Post by Kay(SO) »

DonnaT,

I know when I went out for the first time with my husband it made all the difference in the world that we were out in the evening rather than broad daylight and we were also no where near where we live. It somehow made it easier and more relaxing to not have to worry about every little thing the first few times out. Although I still feel very protective of him when we do go out. We then were able to venture out in the daytime. You might say we both worked our way up to it. Just a thought. We went to a club, restaurant and then finally to brunch.

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DonnaT
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Post by DonnaT »

That's a good idea Kay, then we wouldn't worry too much about running into someone we knew.

BTW, the first girl I fell in love with (7th grade) was named Kay, but alas it wasn't returned. :-({|=
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Lorna
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Re: Talking about feelings... worse than pulling teeth.

Post by Lorna »

CJ wrote: But shame, guilt, and low self-esteem have much to do with what the world around you thinks of you. Like many here, I learned young that who I was (and am) is not okay with the world at large. That knowledge produced shame.
CJ wrote:If you have a woman who's willing to take your hand, look into your eyes, and say, "this is who I am; please show me who you are," then, for Pete's sake, people, DO!

Anyway, just some of my thoughts on yet another lonely Monday night.

Love,
CJ
Hi CJ,

First and foremost, (--) (--) (--)

second, I most certainly agree with what you said. If one has the opportunity to share with someone his or her innermost thoughts, feelings and ideas then it should be done.

But like you said, it is a difficult thing for many of us to do. I now laugh at all of the standard nonsense that we've all been spoonfed since birth: "Suck it up!" "Be a man!" "Men don't cry!"

I am now happy to see that in contemporary society, for younger generations that are coming of age, all of these old beliefs are now being tossed out like yesterday's garbage. =D>

But for the rest of us who have had to live with it for so long it can be a very difficul thing to unlearn. However it is possible. We just have to give ourselves sufficient time and patience.

Love,

~ Lorna
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Post by Elizabeth »

Hi girls,

I have tried to talk about what I think "true acceptance" is. This has been a very enlightening thread in that regard. We have heard from several SO's which is like gold, as least to me.

I think that some have taken offense to statements I have made regarding what I beleive true acceptance means to the crossdresser, and their representations to thier SO's.

It has been, and continues to be my contention that absolute 100% acceptance should be the goal.

I was really glad to see this post by Darlene.

http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/v ... highlight=

And the link to the pictures of female crossdressers around the turn of the twentieth century.

http://www.sappho.com/vintage/crossdressers.html

Now? I ask all of you SO's if you would be willing to go through what these women went through, just so they could wear men's clothes? Because it was there courage, and willingness to be shunned and ridiculed, to make it possible for you to wear those jeans you put on so casually these days.

And just as you think nothing of it now, those women went through the same exact persecution that your DH and CDers like myself accept daily. So we can express who we really are.

While I agree that many CDers will accept rules(being in a leash) because they value thier SO so much that they would not risk it. And others will do it because they fear public ridicule. But it is my beleif and will continue to be my beleif that no person has the right to ask another person to dress in a way to suit them. No matter what the public embarrasment might be.

I want to close with this one simple challenge to everyone.

If you woke up tomorrow, and the entire world accepted crossdressing just as they now accept women wearing what ever they want? Would you still need rules to keep it under wraps?

I choose not to let the unknown "society" decide my happiness. I won't wait for acceptance, just as those women in the pictures refused to wait.

If I offended anyone in any of my posts, it was not my intention. And apologize. I know we live in the real world where people are embarrassed, and there are consequences for our choices.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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DonnaT
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Post by DonnaT »

I read in several posts, that we want 100% acceptance from our SO. That's a rarety in any marriage, much less one with a CD.

For example, my wife loves green cars, but hates blue. I hate the color green on a car and prefer blue. Should I let her buy a green car or should she respect my wishes and buy a blue car? Or do we compromise and buy two cars or buy a totally different color car?

To me, there is a difference between a CD and a TV. The CD is an occasional dresser, whereas the TV desires to dress and portray themselves as women all the time. Some TV’s feel they should have been born a girl, and go through SRS, which makes them a TS.

To find an SO that is accepting of our CDing even a little is quite an acheivement. When the CD goes further into the realm of a TV, and still expects 100% acceptance, then that CD/TV does not accept the SO for who they are.

I know, we are born this way (most likely) and can't change that, any more that someone who is gay can change. The SO, however isn't born with a predilection for or against CDs. Nor is she born with a desire to be with a woman, or a man that looks like a woman. We can't expect her to change that if we accept her the way she is.

So, personally, the only thing I can expect from my wife is the 100%acceptance that I am a CD, will always be a CD, and nothing will ever change that. I don't expect her to accept my CDing, I merely hope she will.

If we've discussed the fact that I need some CDing, but she has determined that she can longer live with a CD, I will respect her wishes and let her go. Probably cry more than I did when my dad died, but when there are Irreconcilable Differences the marriage is over. I pray that never happens.
DonnaT
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